Ordered the TRD sway bar kit

Handling, suspension, and brake tuning discussions
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Charles (in GA)
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Ordered the TRD sway bar kit

Post by Charles (in GA) »

I ordered the TRD sway bar kit for the '03-'08 Matrix today to install in my '04 vibe FWD base model.HAS ANYONE CHANGED THE FRONT SWAY BAR WITHOUT REMOVING THE K FRAME?????? I'm beginning to regret spending the money as it looks like alot more work than I planned on. Also bought the front tower brace. $700 total (which also includes the rear bar). Parts guy said TRD would not allow them to discount any at all.Sway bars do alot for a car, that I know. I added a rear sway bar to my '70 Mustang years ago, made all the difference in the world. My old '67 Falcon came from the factory without one, but with the frame brackets, so I got one off a station wagon in the junkyard and installed it. Again, huge difference. I know suspensions have come a long ways, but bigger heavier sway bars do help, I know. Just may turn into a can of worms.Charles
Charles (in GA)
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And what else did I discover while under the car?????/

Post by Charles (in GA) »

The K frame is attached to the body with four large bolts. The two forward bolts are directly above the lower suspension arm, the arm even has a hole thru it to allow a socket and extension to access the bolt head.While figuring out how difficult it would be to change out the sway bar for the TRD one, I discovered the forward LH K frame attach bolt MISSING!!! Its just GONE. The threads inside the frame have a dusting of rust on them, may have been gone for quite a while.I took lots of pics of the underside of the car while on the lift, after I bought it, but right now, I cannot find them on the computer. If I do, I might be able to verify if the bolt has been missing since I bought it.Charles

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Charles (in GA)
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Re: And what else did I discover while under the car?????/ (Charles (in GA))

Post by Charles (in GA) »

Here is the bolt I removed from the RH side to see what it looked like.Its a 1.5mm thread pitch, I think its 14mm diameter.Charles

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Re: And what else did I discover while under the car?????/ (Charles (in GA))

Post by star_deceiver »

Bet someone at the factory forgot to put loctite on the LH side bolt! Time to buy a new one... that'll set you back a dollar, tops... But hey, now you actually have a reason to take it apart!
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mac99d
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Re: And what else did I discover while under the car?????/ (star_deceiver)

Post by mac99d »

Wow missing a bolt that’s crazy. When I installed my sway bar I did have to loosen the front ones a lot and remove the rear ones make sure you have a jack ready to support the K and a long crow bar to pry it open to slip in the bar. When putting it back together make sure all the bolts start before you start to tighten any of them, and like star_deceiver said make sure to use lock tight. As for the back you may need to tighten the bolts more than once or twice.
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Water boy
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Re: And what else did I discover while under the car?????/ (Charles (in GA))

Post by Water boy »

Quote, originally posted by Charles (in GA) »The K frame is attached to the body with four large bolts. The two forward bolts are directly above the lower suspension arm, the arm even has a hole thru it to allow a socket and extension to access the bolt head.While figuring out how difficult it would be to change out the sway bar for the TRD one, I discovered the forward LH K frame attach bolt MISSING!!! Its just GONE. The threads inside the frame have a dusting of rust on them, may have been gone for quite a while.I took lots of pics of the underside of the car while on the lift, after I bought it, but right now, I cannot find them on the computer. If I do, I might be able to verify if the bolt has been missing since I bought it.CharlesI'm just guessing here but I'm pretty sure that after installing BOTH bolts and the sway bar your body roll should be nil as compared to what it was last month.
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Charles (in GA)
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Re: And what else did I discover while under the car?????/ (mac99d)

Post by Charles (in GA) »

Quote »Wow missing a bolt that’s crazy. When I installed my sway bar I did have to loosen the front ones a lot and remove the rear ones make sure you have a jack ready to support the K and a long crow bar to pry it open to slip in the bar. When putting it back together make sure all the bolts start before you start to tighten any of them, and like star_deceiver said make sure to use lock tight. As for the back you may need to tighten the bolts more than once or twice.This is what I was looking for, some one who had done this without completely pulling the K frame.***********Picked up the bars and braces this morning. Also, the Toyota parts guy found the K frame in the parts book and we identified the bolt and he ordered it. Warehouse had one in stock, about $9.Also, found the pics I took after I got the car, but none show the bolt area, so I cannot tell how long it might have been gone.Charles
Charles (in GA)
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Re: Ordered the TRD sway bar kit (Charles (in GA))

Post by Charles (in GA) »

OK, pics will come later......... Buuuutttttt................Need a couple of answers from someone who has installed the TRD fr/rear sway bar kit............The front bar has two holes in the ends of it. I assume they are to allow the installer to select how stiff the bar is. End hole would mean less bar twist, thus less roll control, hole farthest from the end would mean more sway control as it would mean slightly more twisting of the bar for a given suspension travel.1) Which hole did you select????? Have you tried both, which did you like?2) The bar is much thicker on the ends than the original. The studs on the vertical rod the sway bar attaches to are not very long, Screwing the nut back on, leaves the nut only about half on, half off the threads. Doesn't look real good. Is there a different rod available?3) The sway bar kit came with no instructions, paperwork, etc. It didn't appear to have ever been opened, and was shipped in from the warehouse..... did your kit come with paperwork, instructions, etc inside it?To add to this, I did find after a bunch of searching on the net, that Hotchkis made the bars for Toyota, and they no longer make them. They also made end link kits for the Vibe/Matrix, and that they no longer make them either. I may end up at O'reilly's and have them order in a Moog end link set for me to measure the stud length on. The TRD catalog does not mention any need for end links with longer studs.Also found the Hotchkis instructions for installing the front sway bar, with pics and info. It tells me that the end hole is the soft hole, and the hole back from that is the stiff hole, so I'll start out soft (which is something like 40% stiffer than stock)For your viewing entertainment..................http://www.hotchkis.net/_uploa...e.pdfThanks,Charles
vibedrivermatt
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Re: Ordered the TRD sway bar kit (Charles (in GA))

Post by vibedrivermatt »

ahhh nevemind edit post. I see you already found the hotchkis instrutions which I was going to post but I missed it in your last post.
mac99d
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Re: Ordered the TRD sway bar kit (vibedrivermatt)

Post by mac99d »

1) I used the stiffest setting, because I do autocross in my car.2) Not sure about a different rod being available. I too had an issue with the nut. I installed it with lock tight over two years ago and it’s still tight. You could try a thinner nut if you wanted.3) My Hotchkis kit did have instructions in the box.Looking forward to the pics. Hope that bolt went in ok.
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Charles (in GA)
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Post by Charles (in GA) »

Picked up the new bolts today from the GM dealer.(Toyota bolt was too long for reasons I don't understand, so I had GM dealer order them, much cheaper too) I made sure I ran all four down all the way by hand. Rather than locktite, I decided to use antiseize to insure they would come out next time and the threads would not be damaged. Torque on the four was 116 lb/ft according to the manual, since I had lubed the threads, I went down to 100 even. They are plenty tight and I will check them every oil change. (You do not even want to do damage to the threads in the frame, they are not repairable, appear to be large steel blocks with the holes threaded so you have 20 or more turns of thread engagement with the bolts) I used antiseize on my Plymouth Breeze when I did the subframe in it to remove the transmission, and never had any problems. If properly torqued, I would not expect the bolts to come loose. Factory doesn't use locktite, none on any of the threads on anything I took apart had any on them.I left the lower arms attached to the ball joints and unbolted the steering rack and wired it to stay up in place. Fabricated a motor support to hold the motor up using the lifting hook on the backside of the motor. Removed the three bolts and three nuts in the middle where the center support connects to the subframe, and then eased the frame down with a floor jack. Swapped the bar, and jacked it back in place and put it all back together.4 bolts on the subframe4 bolts on the steering rack2 nuts on the bar to link connections4 bolts on the two sway bar cushion/clamps3 nuts, 3 bolts on the center support to subframe.10 lugnutsI think that is it. Not for the inexperienced however. Steering rack is difficult to get to the two LH bolts, esp the forward one, ended up using about three foot of 3/8 drive extensions and a 9/16 flex socket that fit the bolt head (17mm) and came thru from the top next to the master cylinder.Drove it with just the front bar, and original rear bar, no roll, lots different handling. Car is now on the two post lift, will get the rear bar tomorrow. Interesting to note that Hochkis says to mount the rear bar with the bow in the bar upward, the OEM bar is mounted with the bow downward.I have a MOOG link coming to O'reilly's tomorrow and will measure the stud on it. Would like to have the Hotchkis links but doubt there are any to be had anywhere.Charles
Charles (in GA)
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Re: (Charles (in GA))

Post by Charles (in GA) »

Well, to add to this, the Hotchkis instructions are a little overkill. There is no need to disconnect the forward/center motor mount or the center support from the radiator back to the subframe. Leave the front end of this brace connected.I made a motor support from a piece of unistrut and a couple of sections of 2x6 about 5 inches long and two Unistrut L brackets and bolts. All of this I had on hand, and it took about an hour. I positioned it on the shock towers and used a turnbuckle attached to the unistut to hook to the motor lift bracket on the back side of the motor. This allowed me to leave the aft/center motor mount connected to the transaxle and drop the subframe down.I left the ball joints and lower arms attached to the spindles, as it helped keep the subframe from going anywhere, I just lowered it with the jack and after the bar was changed out and re secured, I raised it back up and the three studs on the motor mount hit the holes and came right thru, perfect alignment.The two LH steering rack to subframe bolts, especially the forward one, are very difficult to access and a real pain to reinstall. I used about three foot of 3/8 drive extension and a 9/16 flex socket to run the forward LH bolt down and then was able to get a box end wrench on it just enough to tighten it the last little bit.Attached it a pic of the motor support I made. Other posts that follow will have other pics.Charles

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Charles (in GA)
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Re: (Charles (in GA))

Post by Charles (in GA) »

Attached is a view from the front of the subframe after I lowered it and positioned the new sway bar. The steering rack is suspended to the exhaust manifold with some wire on the passenger side. Note how it is in "thin air" about 4 inches above the subframe.

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Charles (in GA)
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Re: (Charles (in GA))

Post by Charles (in GA) »

Here is a close up view of the subframe and steering rack from the front. You can see the new sway bar (very red) and I have labeled the steering rack and differential and aft motor mount. The steering rack is secured with bolts installed from the top, down into welded in nuts inside of the subframe.

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Charles (in GA)
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Re: (Charles (in GA))

Post by Charles (in GA) »

This is a reverse of the view above. Here we are looking up and forward. You can see the steering rack the aft motor mount and the O2 sensor and exhaust pipe going up to the manifold. Sway bar is bolted in place and it is time to raise the subframe back into place.

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Charles (in GA)
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Re: (Charles (in GA))

Post by Charles (in GA) »

Comparison view of old and new front sway bars. The new bar is bent differently. With the vehicle off the ground, the steering rack end boots actually rub the bar slightly when you operate the steering. On the ground, there is a fair amount of clearance however.

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Charles (in GA)
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Re: (Charles (in GA))

Post by Charles (in GA) »

Rear sway bar installed. Not much to see. The rear axle design is incredible to say the least. Two trailing arms, pivoting on rubber bushings, and connected near the pivot point by a V shaped piece of steel, V opening facing aft. Independent movement of the rear wheels twists this V shaped piece of metal constantly. The sway bar is installed inside of it and absorbs much of the twisting force. Hotchkis instructions show the bolts with heads up, but the factory had installed mine with heads down, which I did when I reinstalled them, using locktite on the bolts. Torque is 150 lb/ft and it needs to be properly torqued to keep it from coming loose.

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mac99d
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Re: (Charles (in GA))

Post by mac99d »

Nice job! Big difference right. I know when I put mine on it was worlds apart.
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Charles (in GA)
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Re: (Charles (in GA))

Post by Charles (in GA) »

Forgot to add, the four large bolts that retain the K frame are screwed into large steel blocks that are welded inside the frame. Impossible to replace or repair. I looked at them closely and they appear to have helicoils in them from the factory. I would not use locktite on them, as there is a chance that the heilcoils would come out next time you remove them. The factory manual does not make a recommendation of thread locker for these bolts either..YES, the car does go around curves real GOOD!!! There is a two lane state highway I travel frequently that has a real sharp, near 90° flat curve in it (no where near meets todays state standards). Usually I slowed to about 45 around this curve and that was fast. Now the car takes it at 60 with no issues at all. Just needs better tires. Will probably install a set of Continentals when these stupid/noisy/cheap Mastercrafts the previous owner installed, wear out.Charles
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CharlesinGA
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Re: Ordered the TRD sway bar kit

Post by CharlesinGA »

Well, I had to re register using a slightly different username. The software apparently does not like ( ) parentheses nor does it like blank spaces in usernames.............

Anyhow, I see my attachments did not survive the change over. I think I will upload the attachments again, in this post rather than hope the administrator is able to recover them.

Charles
Attachments
front view of lowered subframe.jpg
front view of lowered subframe.jpg (243.32 KiB) Viewed 7462 times
vibe motor support.jpg
vibe motor support.jpg (165.81 KiB) Viewed 7462 times
old and new front sway bars.jpg
old and new front sway bars.jpg (82.97 KiB) Viewed 7462 times
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CharlesinGA
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Re: Ordered the TRD sway bar kit

Post by CharlesinGA »

Ah, three images at a time, click on the images and the full pic will appear.
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rear sway bar installed.jpg
rear sway bar installed.jpg (169.02 KiB) Viewed 7462 times
close up looking up and forward.jpg
close up looking up and forward.jpg (165.01 KiB) Viewed 7462 times
close up looking aft.jpg
close up looking aft.jpg (238.58 KiB) Viewed 7462 times
cieglo
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Re: Ordered the TRD sway bar kit

Post by cieglo »

That's a sweet looking sway bar.
I autocross my 03GT and when I put my Tein coilovers in I dosconnected my swaybar completely. It's still laying in there, but the linkages are collecting dust on a shelf in my garage.
HUGELY "awesome*" on course. My tires stick, I get grip: I've gone from OEM worn-out suspension none-dersteer to a very predictable responsive but still slight understeer.

Doing this opened a good debate as to what role swaybarws play in different cars: front vs. rear vs. AWD, heavy-a$$ wagons vs. miata scooters, etc.

I'm always open for second opinions. How does that big red bar feel?


*"awesome" is a relative comparitive term as i still am very poor at this sport. However, not I feel like I'm actually driving the car and not simply avoiding spinout with every direction change.
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