Advice needed badly! Please help!!!

PHXLavaVibe · Post by **PHXLavaVibe** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:59 am

Sorry for the extra long post. If you do manage to read through it all please give me some feed back with your honest opinion and advice...or just let me have it!I could really use some advice on this situation!Here's a little background so that you can better assess the situation:My parents have been in a lot of trouble (Financially) for quite some time. My Dad works as an inspector for new housing developments and over the past year or so his work has been cut dramatically. The company he works for started off great several years ago, but now is down to only a couple employees. Actually the only employees are the owners of this company. There is a total of 2 inspectors left (Sub-contractors). More often than not the owners take the inspection jobs for them selves which leaves my dad and the other inspector without work. It seems if the owners do the work then they don't have to pay inspectors to do it. I am really not sure why my dad hasn't left this messed up company yet other than the fact that when there is a lot of work it pays quite well. With the housing market the way it is right now I don't see the work picking back up any time soon.My mom hasn't worked a steady job for ages. She had a nervous breakdown when my brother and I were little kids. She was battling a deep depression and on many, many prescribed drugs for a good 7 years. In fact she has a total memory loss of those 7 years. She got better over time and forced herself to get off the medications, but I am fairly certain she is going through another depression now.My parents have never really been smart with their finances. They have a few credit cards that they maxed out a long time ago and for some reason they refuse to pay them back. Each one of the cards has accumulated nearly $10,000 of fees and charges. They were taken to court by two of the credit card companies and lost . They were put on payment arrangements of $50.00 a month but still refuse to pay them. My dad basically being self employed does not have any type of insurance or medical plans. Therefore neither of them has seen a doctor, dentist, or anything like that in a very long time. They both have major dental problems which they can't afford to fix without insurance. Also with being self employed it is my dad's responsibility to set aside money for paying his taxes. Taxes are not withheld from his paycheck. They tend to blow any money they make on useless stuff rather than doing what they are supposed to do. I am not certain on the amount but I believe they currently owe somewhere in the range of $8,000 to $10,000 in back taxes for the past two yearsÂ¡KNot to mention this years taxes.They did however go out and buy an expensive Washer and Dryer set and spent close to $6,000 or more over the past few years building a huge pond in their back yard, and other misc. landscaping projects around the house.Well, it was brought to my attention last August that they were hurting severely financially. They were really behind on bills, couldn't afford to go out and buy groceries, my dad's truck took a turn for the worse, their minivan was acting up like crazy, and it was all they could do to scrape up enough money to pay their mortgage. I took it upon my self as a loving son to get on Craigslist.com and a couple other websites and begged and pleaded for people to help out. I would have thrown a little bit of help their way as well but at the time I was quite strapped for cash too. I got an overwhelming response from some kind hearted people and spent an entire weekend driving all over the city picking up food donations. There were even a couple people that donated a little $$. I ended up gathering enough supplies to get them by for a few months. To this day they still have a lot of the food left. I felt really good after doing that for my parents.Still, it wasn't enough. Come October they were facing a possible foreclosure. It just so happened that the lease on our apartment was set to expire at the end of October. After a brief discussion with my parents, my wife and I decided that it would be best if we moved our family in with my parents. This way we could help pay some bills and keep them from losing their house. We moved in near the end of October. Our plans were to pay off a small payday loan we had outstanding and then with my next paycheck we would start helping with the bills. Well, as it turned out we ended up making the mortgage payment in full right after we moved in. Two weeks later we ended up paying nearly all the utilities (past due) just so they wouldn't get shut off. We still never paid off our payday loan. We made it very clear to my parents that we would not put off our own bills just to cover theirs. Our bills would be paid first, (so we donÂ¡Â¦t end up in the same situation) and then we would help them pay their bills with anything left over. So far other than the fact that the payday loan is still not paid off we have been able to keep to our plan. On the other hand it was originally decided that we would try to split the bills and etc down the middle when possible. So far, as of today I have paid the full mortgage, all major utilities, some of their small bills such as car insurance and cell phone bills and bought all the groceries, plus I have also had to pay our own bills. Add on the expenses of a 16mo. baby girl and you would see that I have been stretched beyond paper thin.Monthly I would have to say that I am forking out nearly $3,000 in bills (combined) verses my dad paying maybe $300 a month. Oh and earlier this month my parents got a letter from their bank showing that one of their credit card companies (collections) attempted to withdrawal I believe nearly $6,000 from their bank account. My parents think it's fake but the bank also included a sealed letter from the attorneys stating their intentions to collect on a debt. Fortunately there wasn't any money in their account at the time and the bank rejected their request due to NSF. This scared the poo out of all of us. It scared me because I never thought collection agencies could actually do something like that. Then you add on the fear that if I write my dad a check to cover some bills and he happens to deposit it or try to cash it, then the bank would take it and the bills wouldn't get paid. Add on the fact that during this whole scare my mom was hinting around about her possible suicide. My wife and I have been miserable every since we moved in. We never really fought before but now we seem to be at each others throats all the time. This whole situation is taking its toll on our relationship. I hate to imagine what it is doing to my daughter. It has been a constant battle between my wife and me as to whether or not we will stick it out for the proposed 6 months or leave immediately. Not only are we snapping at each other but at everyone. There is a ton of stress and tension between my mom and my wife and everyone else for that matter. My wife and I can't help but feel that we are being taken advantage of. The whole idea of getting into this situation was to give my dad the opportunity to find more work and help them get back on their feet. That way we could all go our separate ways after six months and get back to our normal lives. Instead it seems that both of my parents are taking it easy and expect us to fully support them and us at the same time. I know my dad has done a lot of job searches on the internet. My mom on the other hand just keeps to herself playing online computer games all day and all night in their garage. It's the only place in the house you can smoke so she stays out there constantly. I have witnessed on several occasions when my dad didn't have work for the day or the week for that matter that he would do the same thing. He would play games on his computer, do yard work, or spend his time out in the garage with my mom. He should be taking this time when he's not working to go out and physically search for a damn job. I cannot keep paying for everything. It's killing me and my family. There's times when he only works for like 3 hours out of the
week and then it seems he just sits on his (removed) for the rest of the time.I confronted my mother about all this a week or two ago and she and I got into a huge argument. I mentioned how we felt we were being taken advantage of and that it seems like my dad isnÂ¡Â¦t doing his part to get work. She got extremely emotional and started giving me a guilt trip talking about how they provided for us when we were kids and all that. She tried saying that my wife is nuts and needs to see a therapist and that it is my responsibility to take care of them since they took care of my brother and I as kids. She made it sound like I was ungrateful and never had to provide for myself growing up. I tried pointing out the fact that I started working when I turned 13 and from that point on I pretty much paid my own way except for food and things like that.I was forced to grow up quickly as a child due to her depression. Anyway she starts talking about how they feel we are disrespecting them by telling them what bills we will or will not pay and by telling them what we expect to see them do during our stay. She said something in the line of we are treating them like kids and that I need to remember my place. We are the kids and they are the parents...we can't tell them what to do. I tried explaining that under the circumstances there are no "kids" or "parents". We are all adults and we need to get through this as two families living under one roof. She didn't like that what so ever and went off on a rampage. Also at some point during this conversation she started the whole "I am better off dead" and "Everyone would be happier if I killed myself" routine. This was the first time I actually heard the words come out of her mouth. I don't take suicide lightly so I am very concerned for her wellbeing. On the other hand it feels like a guilt trip to make us stay. My mother has gotten really good at serving guilt trips and this feels like another attempt. To tell you the truth I think it might actually be working a little.My wife and I have been married a little over 4 years now. It has been a wonderful 4 years I must say. My wife went through a very rough childhood. In fact she was in one of the worst cases of Child Abuse and Neglect Arizona has ever seen. I wont get into that right now but it was extremely difficult on her. She was in therapy for a good 4 years during which she actually attempted suicide. She still has the scars on her wrists. She has had a hard time trying to put that all behind her. Our marriage and unconditional love has been her saving grace. Needless to say all this stress and talk about suicide is taking its toll on her. Thus my mom thinks she needs to see another therapist. My wife on the other hand never wants to go through that ordeal again. I don't blame her either. I have worked hard to make her life easier and to help her deal with the past and I don't want to have it all brought up to the surface again, especially now that we have this beautiful little girl to take care of. My dad was always a hard working man when I was growing up. He would work two or three jobs just to make ends meet. I always looked up to him as my hero and role model. From what I learned watching him as I grew up, I know it is my responsibility as a man and a father to do what ever it takes to provide for my wife and kids. My gut is telling me that we need to move out of their house and get on with our lives ASAP before anything happens to jeopardize my family. On the other hand it also feels as if it is my responsibility to stay and help my parents for as long as it takes.My wife and I have been talking a lot lately about moving out. We're just not sure how to go about it or if that is what we should do. My wife has been looking all over the internet for apartments for us. Yesterday I did a little search my self and I ended up leaving work a bit early to check some out in person. I happened to stumble upon an irresistible deal and now we are really confused as to what to do. There is this absolutely beautiful apartment complex much closer to my office. They just finished completely remodeling and upgrading the entire complex. I took a tour of a couple of hopeful units and I must say, it has everything we have been looking for in a home. All brand new state of the art appliances, including the oven/stove, built in microwave, dishwasher, washer and dryer, deep double sinks with elegant faucets, walk in closets, a private patio, tons of storage and several newly built play grounds. They are willing to waive the application fee for us and are offering 3 months of free rent. We can either take three months without paying a cent or prorate those three months into the remaining payments which drastically reduces the monthly rent. We can basically do what ever we want...like take the first two months free and prorate the third, so on and so forth. These three free moths would help us out big time. We would be able to finally pay off the payday loan, payoff one or more of our credit cards, or even buy some decent furniture and maybe a nice new cookware set. The thought has even crossed my mind that we could pay at least one more mortgage payment for my parents after we move out.We would really love to move out and take advantage of this amazing offer! I am taking my wife and daughter over to the apartment complex later today so they can check it out. We will probably go ahead and fill out the application. At least this way we don't have to pay the application fee and we can find out if we are approved or not before we make any decisions.If we do get approved and decide to move then we need to find a way to break it to my parents that we will be moving out and that they will be on their own again. We have even started to come up with a little scheme to get out. My parents know we have been fighting a lot and that I will always put my wife and daughter first. One of the possible ways out would be to stage a big fight where my wife threatens to leave me if we don't move out. Another would be to start an argument when they are around and end it with us deciding to move out so we can reclaim our sanity. Another option would be to start an argument or just allow one to occur between us and them and tell them we have had enough of their crap and that we are moving out. Then again we could try to sit down and talk about it like adults and hope that they would understand our need to leave. Either way it won't be pretty and someone is likely to get hurt emotionally. I know there will be at least one more guilt trip thrown at us for wanting to leave. We could possibly stay and tuff it out but I would risk endangering my wife and daughter and that is something I don't want to do. We are all walking on egg shells as it is. One little spark and the poo will hit the fan. That and who's to say that if we could manage to stay for the rest of the 6 months that anything would change. We have already had several little family meetings to try and solve problems with each other and before you know it they are right there staring you in the face again. It feels like we are stuck in a horrible situation that we will never escape.Personally I feel we are just postponing the inevitable. Well, thank you for reading this entire post. Now that you know just about everything that is going on...please feel free to speak your mind. Give me advice if you have it or feel free to bash me into the ground...just don't upset the moderator Thanks again!!!

Whelan · Post by **Whelan** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:37 am

You want an honest opinion. Bankruptcy is not a bad choice for them. Personally you have to really fend for yourself at some point and if things are starting to toll on your marriage it's time to move out and worry about yourselves. Then you can work from the outside and setup your parents for bankruptcy. That way they can clear the debt, and yes it is 7 years of hardship to a degree, but they are clean slated. Not to mention if I am thinking right, if you go into bankruptcy you are not allowed to be foreclosed on, it rolls into the process somehow. I would seriously consider it, look into it. Go to a Bankruptcy lawyer and checkout some advice on the situation. if your parents refuse to go, you have plenty to offer in terms of doing something more drastic. That would include going over their heads and decalring them unable to handle their own expenses thus you can setup the bankruptcy for them. Althought that may also put a damper on you as well since you would be the benefactor of sorts.But again, look into it. I know many people think it's completely unacceptable to do but I know people personally who have gone through a bankruptcy and come out ok on the other end.

nygiantzz1 · Post by **nygiantzz1** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:05 am

Wow! This is a bad mess you got dragged into. Your parents are irresponsible people who are not likely to change. It sounds to me like you have your head on straight and are trying to do the right thing but they are taking advantage of you. Your wife and daughter have to come first here. You need to move out. It's one thing to help family if bad things have happened to them. Your parents have brought most of their trouble on themselves by overspending and ignoring their obligations. I think you should encourage them to sell everything they own of any value, get an affordable apartment and start over. let the bank foreclose on the house, their credit is shot, it won't make a difference. I would encourage your mom to get some help for her depression, I'm sure there are free treatment options for low income families in your area. The tough part may be getting her to do it. Tell your father to man up and get a job. I'm 43yr old and would do anything necessary to keep my family fed. If you got to sweep floors or flip burgers, so be it. Something better will come along eventually. You need to take that apartment and give your family the stability they deserve. You have gone above and beyond to help them, don't let them drag you down with them. I hope I don't come off cold or harsh but this hit's way to close to home for me. I went through something similar many years ago with my mom. I still reget all the time and money I wasted. I really hope you come out of this OK, this isn't going to be pretty. You have do what's right for wife and daughter. I hope what I've written helps.

psiu · Post by **psiu** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:24 am

That sucks.I know you know this already, but you have given an honest effort to help them--and they are not giving the same effort on their own. Obviously the situation they are in is probably overwhelming them a bit, but instead of taking the chance to use your generosity to turn it around a bit it seems they are just taking advantage of you.And your mom crossed a few lines, imo. Guilt trips, suggesting therapy for your wife, playing on a major factor in your wife's past by using suicide as a threat--no way. Time to go.You tried to be a good son, it's getting thrown back in your face and possibly bringing ruin on your marriage and your child.And of course, you already know this could drastically damage your relationship with your parents, no matter how right you are. They've been living in denial for years obviously, so you know that isn't going to change just because you're the one telling them.It also sounds like you may need to talk to your dad one on one--go to a bar or someplace where you can talk to him man to man, not someplace that puts you both in the dad-son position. Your dad sounds like a fairly practical guy, so maybe that would work...maybe not, you obviously know him enough to decide that. Discuss bankruptcy as an option for them (first with your dad?), maybe have a talk with your wife first. If they lose the house, do they come stay with you (defintely talk with your wife first)? If your mom goes over the line, do you boot their asses out on the street (and it doesn't sound like that would be very peaceful with your mom under the same roof at least--too much drama)?That situation sucks dude. Some holidays huh? Good luck with whatever happens.Most importantly, give your wife a hug and hold her tonight.

northvibe · Post by **northvibe** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:29 am

Quote, originally posted by nygiantzz1 Â»Wow! This is a bad mess you got dragged into. Your parents are irresponsible people who are not likely to change. It sounds to me like you have your head on straight and are trying to do the right thing but they are taking advantage of you. Your wife and daughter have to come first here. You need to move out. It's one thing to help family if bad things have happened to them. Your parents have brought most of their trouble on themselves by overspending and ignoring their obligations. I think you should encourage them to sell everything they own of any value, get an affordable apartment and start over. let the bank foreclose on the house, their credit is shot, it won't make a difference. I would encourage your mom to get some help for her depression, I'm sure there are free treatment options for low income families in your area. The tough part may be getting her to do it. Tell your father to man up and get a job. I'm 43yr old and would do anything necessary to keep my family fed. If you got to sweep floors or flip burgers, so be it. Something better will come along eventually. You need to take that apartment and give your family the stability they deserve. You have gone above and beyond to help them, don't let them drag you down with them. I hope I don't come off cold or harsh but this hit's way to close to home for me. I went through something similar many years ago with my mom. I still reget all the time and money I wasted. I really hope you come out of this OK, this isn't going to be pretty. You have do what's right for wife and daughter. I hope what I've written helps.+1. You need to be honest telling your parents though, dont stage a fight. Just tell them whats up and how you feel about their situation and how you think they should/could go about it. You've already helped them a ton and they seem to not have helped them selves much afterward its kind of a lost cause until they figure it out for themselves. Im sorry to hear about their situation but you seem to have found a fantastic deal! jump on it.

AKLGT · Post by **AKLGT** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:53 am

wow.ok, you may not like what I have to say, but this comes from someone who worked in collections for many years, a banker for 2, own my own business and well.... have made my own poor decisions financially.Your parents are dead beats. not only financially but just in life in general. it is not right nor fair that they are making you pay their bills because for whatever stupid lame *** reason they don't feel they have to. People like this (removed) me off. They refuse to live in the real world and rather than be responsible adults, go and blow their money away on nothing and then make everyone else pick up the bill. When I worked in collections, I would sue people like this and not even feel bad. Only problem, I had to wait in line to get my money since they owed everyone. Yes, if you have a judgement against you, the bank or creditor can take it from you and sweep your bank account. your parents OWE them money and sounds like a lot. For it to get that far, well.... again, I don't feel sorry for them at all. Seems like they put themselves there and didn't do a damn thing to get out of it. I know that sounds harsh, but I've been there, seen it from both sides. You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped.I went thru a very nasty divorce 8 yrs ago, went crazy and spent a boatload of money, some from the marriage and divorce and other from just trying to buy myself happiness. When it was all said and done, I ended up having to file (4 yrs ago) and it sucked. Since then I have worked my (removed) off to get my credit back, making sure that I don't over extend myself. I am also self employed and pay a bunch of taxes just like they do, however I take my financial obligations very seriously. I signed my name on a contract saying I will pay back my debt. That is why it took me over 4 yrs to finally file, only after both my father and boss (at the collection agency I worked) sat me down and told me I had no other option. Something I'm proud of? NO. But what I did after that to make sure it wouldn't happen again is important. There is life after bankruptcy, but it's still tough even after 4 yrs. Banks will not give me a loan, even though my credit score is 720, because of the bankruptcy, it's an automatic no.Filing bankruptcy for your parents will most likely not change much. It doesn't sound like they are even interested in trying to turn their lives around to do the necessary work. it's a lot of work to get yourself back from a bankruptcy, not just writing off debt, you still have to get yourself into the real world, establish yourself and make good on the new debts. Your mom is back into depression (went through that too, complete with suicide watch.. that was fun and NEVER a position I will allow myself to get to ever again). And yes, it does hurt all those around you, the guilt you feel when someone is depressed, like it's your fault. THe truth is, depression is self serving and selfish. It's all about that person, how they feel, what they want, etc. I went through a very deep depression and though it was one of the darkest times of my life, I know how selfish I really was. Lucky for me, though I thought about it, I knew how much it would hurt my family and friends if I ever did kill myself, because nothing is ever worth putting that kind of anguish on my family.Your father sounds like an enabler and he is in denial of everything that is going on around him. So instead of keeping his responsibilities, he is putting them on YOU and your family. YOUR FAMILY comes first. Period. That's great you want to help them out and you did your best, but again, you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. You risk losing your wife, your daughter and well, happiness. Money is one of the largest stressors in any marriage and your parents are draining you. That's NOT right. Go get that apartment, move out with your family, and tell your parents to be adults. Your dad's living in the glory years of the past and needs to find more work. Yes, as a business owner, I will fire EVERYONE before I let MY FAMILY and my responsibilities go. If the market is that bad, why would the company pay a sub contractor to do what they can? That makes no business sense what so ever. If it ever got that bad, I can guarantee I will be doing the work (which is what I do now so I don't have as much labor) vs having a subcontractor or other employee. Tell your dad to find more work. he's a sub-contractor, not an employee so by law, he can work for other companies doing the exact same thing. *edit* You need to sit down and talk to your parents. As I said, your mom's in depression and your dad's in denial. You need to help them realize this and by their poor actions they are causing you to risk losing your own family, it's better for you to move out. You can still help them get their lives back on track, but not by paying the bills for them. if they lose their house, well, unfortunately, that's how it goes. He needs to get motivated and get out there, putting his name out and getting some business in so that doesn't happen. If you help him devise a game plan of what to do next, how to survive and move forward, you will help them so much more than just paying a bill or their mortgage, because the next month will be the same thing. It seems they have both given up.If he's a home inspector, maybe he can open his own business. He's a sub-contractor, so basically the same thing. Get involved in networking and have him introduce himself to all the realtors in town. I know most of the realtors here use several different home inspectors and if he charges a fair price and does a good job, he will get more business by volume. I also recommend he get involved with any local business networks like Business Network International. I'm quite positive they have chapters there since they are world wide. I belong to one for almost 3 yrs now and I have built my business (good majority of it) through networking. If you can help your parents see the light at the end of the tunnel, then maybe they will be more willing to do the hard work to get there and not give up (as it appears they have now).Good luck and hope your own family doesn't suffer from all this mess.

jimincalif · Post by **jimincalif** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:26 am

You have gone above and beyond the call of duty in trying to help your parents. You need to put your own family first. Take the offer on the apartment and move out ASAP.If the living situation was tolerable, and if there was a legal way for you to get ownership of the house by taking over the mortgage, there would perhaps be some other options, but the environment is not healthy for you and your new family and there are already too many legal entanglements with their finances and may be other liens on the home.Go with your gut. Don't feel guilty, it is time for "tough love". Tell the parents once you are out and established in your new home you will be glad to meet with them and discuss their situation and what can be done for them, but keep a firewall between your finances and theirs.Good luck.

KNINE · Post by **KNINE** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:03 am

To put it simply, your first reponsibility is to your wife and child. Be a good father and husband. It won't make you less of a son. Good luck to you.

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:10 am

You got troubles like a river, deep and wide.Likely you'll outlive your parents, but you're sworn to your wife till death, and you can't let the daily stress chip away at that relationship. Remember that "in sickness and in health, for richer, for poorer" stuff from the wedding? You meant it then, you still do. It takes work to keep life's troubles from hurting a marriage, which is why my advice to you is to stop reading car forums and immediately find your wife and commit a random act of romance upon her. Troubles come and go, big and small, rejoice in what you do have.

keithvibe · Post by **keithvibe** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:15 am

Quote, originally posted by K-NINE Â»To put it simply, your first reponsibility is to your wife and child. Be a good father and husband. It won't make you less of a son. Good luck to you. x2You can't help your parents, they are adults. Let them figure out their own problems.

PHXLavaVibe · Post by **PHXLavaVibe** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:45 am

Thank you all very much for your input. For the most part your responses are exactly what I am looking for. I truly feel the same way. I guess I just felt a bit guilty for thinking such things.For those of you who suggested my parents file bankruptcy...they already did that. It has been a long time and is already cleared off their credit report. From what I was told they actually lost their old house at that time because of it. I was just a kid so I don't remember much about it.Even if they wanted to file and I know they don't I doubt they could scrounge up the money to pay the fee to file. More than likely they will either both need to get off their butts and get a job or face losing this house. I really hate the thought of them losing this house but I think it's inevitable now.Now for a little bit of a follow up...My wife and I faked a doctors appointment for my daughter so I could get both of them out of the house and go check out that apartment I mentioned above. Surprisingly it worked flawlessly. They didn't question us leaving for a few hours at all.Now the apartment...(removed), the apartment is amazing! We met with a different leasing agent than I saw yesterday but its all good. The agent I spoke with yesterday did join us a bit later though. My wife was absolutely astonished just as I thought she would be. Apparently she thought I made a mistake about the deal I told her last night. We checked out a couple of the units and she immediately fell in love with the place...So did my daughter! The deal is real and we are jumping on it. After getting back to the leasing office we discussed it for about 1 nanosecond then decided to sign the application. We briefly explained our situation and the management is more than willing to work with us. They waved the application fee as previously agreed. All we had to pay today was a $50 holding fee. I mentioned that we were kinda broke at the moment and didn't have the money to fork over at this time. They allowed us to write them a personal check (which they do not accept from non-residents) with the intent of me returning on my next payday and swapping the check for a money order. They also set it up to where (If we are approved) we will move in February 1st. We wont have to pay rent until April 1st. We decided to take the two months free up front so we can afford the move and knock out some of our own debts, and then the third month is pro-rated into the remaining rent payments. Our rent will (If Approved) be about $150 cheaper than my parents mortgage and also includes the fees for Water/Sewage/Trash. This will save us money dramatically!!! Maybe then I can take my beautiful wife out for a night on the town and remind her just how much I love her.Speaking of which...definitely gonna "commit a random act of romance" tonight. It feels like we should be celebrating, but we haven't even gotten the approval yet. I was told that due to New Years and office hours that they may not get to processing the paperwork until Friday.I will keep you all updated!

AKLGT · Post by **AKLGT** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:50 am

well sounds promising none the less! Good luck!

keithvibe · Post by **keithvibe** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:11 am

BE forwarned that when your parents lose their house and all their belongings. they will insist moving in with you.STAY STRONG AND SAY NO! Point them to the nearest sears store for a fridge box.

kunkstyle · Post by **kunkstyle** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:32 pm

Quote, originally posted by keithvibe Â»BE forwarned that when your parents lose their house and all their belongings. they will insist moving in with you.STAY STRONG AND SAY NO!That's some solid advice for a plausible situation. I don't have much to add other than what ther members have posted. Your parents are given to you. Your wife you chose. Her (and your daughter) are number one. It was your parents job to take care of you and your siblings as kids, and it's your job to take care of your daughter. Don't let them guilt you into thinking you owe them something for doing their parental duties when you were a kid.Stay strong and good luck!

Kari · Post by **Kari** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:41 pm

If your parents have never been able to or wanted to properly manage their finances, the chances they will start now are between slim and none. You are correct in saying that you are merely postponing the inevitable by using your money to pay their mortgage and their bills. They are taking advantage of you. Don't let them do it any longer.As has been said, your first responsibility is to your wife and child. If the current living situation is having a negative effect on your marriage, then it is time to get out of it.

lovemyraffe · Post by **lovemyraffe** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:12 pm

Holy crap! That's one hell of a novel. Sorry you are going through so much, but I will agree with everyone. Your first priority is to your wife and child. Your parents are old enough to figure things out for themselves. Your child should not suffer because of your parents.

PHXLavaVibe · Post by **PHXLavaVibe** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:44 am

I truly do apreciate everyone's input! My wife and I got into another argument last night. It is deffinately time for us to move on and move out! A couple things I forgot to mention...In order for us to move into my parents house we all had to make some sacrafices. My parents live in a 3 bedroom 2 1/2 bath two story house. The two spare bedrooms were packed full of stuff they have accumilated over the past several years. In our room that we are using now there was a giant waterbed that my brother gave my parents for safe keeping. His apartment at the time was two small to fit this giant bed. When we moved in we had to take the waterbed down because neither my wife or I can sleep comfortably on one. There were also several boxes of junk that we had to take out of there as well. Basically our room was completely empty by the time we moved in. The second room was/is my mom's craft room. That room was stuffed with tons and tons of craft supplies and unfinished projects. The room we are using is way too small to fit our bed and necessary furniture plus my daughters crib and changing table. After a lot of arguing we managed to convince my mother to make some room in her beloved craft room so my daughter would have a place to sleep. It is amazing that she has lasted this long in such a cramped space.My mom managed to make just enough space in this room so that we could squeeze the crib in and amazingly we were able to fit the changing table in there as well. It took me nearly an hour rearanging some of my moms craft stuff just so that I could get access to an electrical outlet to plug in the baby monitor. This room is so cramped that when my daughter stands up in her crib she can easily reach the changing table...not to mention my mothers presious junk. There is maby a foot between the crib and the changing table and that is the only room to walk in there. Its not that big of a deal for me because i am pretty much skin and bones. My wife has a lot of issues with the lack of space however. One she is just a tad bit heavier than me, and two she is shorter than me. It is quite difficult for her to reach our daughter in the crib. I get constant complaints from her about the lack of space in that room.Then there's the temperature issue. My wife tends to get cold easily. Two weeks ago my parents finally turned on the heater. With it being a two story house...the upper level gets really hot and the lower level gets really cold. We tend to wake upbefore anyone else do to taking care of the baby. Generally when we wake up in the mornings it is freezing downstairs. My wife tends to turn up the thermostat to warm it up a little down stairs each morning. Did you know babies get cold too and need to be kept nice and warm when possible? Well aparently my parents never take that into consideration. From what my dad told me the other day, their room gets extremily hot. He said they have a thermometer in their room and the other day around 7:30am, about 30 minutes after my wife woke up with the baby the temperature read 96 degrees in their room. Down stairs on the other hand it shows that it was 64 degrees.Without comming out and actually saying it I got the impression from my parents that we are not to adjust the thermostat. All the bedrooms are upstairs and ours never seems to get that hot. I told him that maybe he should close their vent, but was abruptly told that the vent wistles quite loudly when it is closed. If there was more room upstairs for my wife and baby to play and etc I would suggest they stay up there until it gets warmer down stairs...but there's not. The heater is only on durring the late afternoon / early evening hours when my mom is not upstairs sleeping. At all other times she is out in the garage with her air conditioner. So basically, durring the past couple weeks my wife and daughter have had to suffer the cold or deal with the complaining from my parents when the heater is turned on too early. It wouldn't be so bad, except for the fact that my daughter tends to make a mess when eating. So much so that we usually have to strip her down to her diaper before putting her in her high chair. I can tell she doesn't like that too much in the mornings because of her shaking and teeth chattering. When we try to explain the temperature situation we get the cold shoulder and occasionally get reminded that it gets too hot upstairs for my mom to sleep. I thought about throwing the fabric cover of the high chair in the dryer for a few minutes so the cold wouldn't be such a shock to my daughters bare skin, but after being yelled at for running the washer and dryer previously durring peak usage times I decided not to.My parents are on some type of plan with the electric company that limits their charges by using major appliances between the hours of 9pm and 9am. We tried washing a load of laundry for my daughter the other night so she could wear a clean set of warm PJ's to bed. My daughter usually goes to bed around 10pm so we were gonna start the laundry around 8pm. My mother literally made us wait until after 9pm to run the washing machine. The washer takes anywhere from 45 to 90 minutes and the dryer takes an aditional hour. That night we had problems with the washer and didn't get her clothes done until nearly midnight. Man were we pissed! Almost 3 hours for one stinking load of laundry!!!The next day we took the rest of our laundry to the nearest laundry mat and washed everything we own (about 9 loads) in a total of two hours.Okay, well this is turning into another novel, so I will stop now. i just had to rant a little more. Thanks for listening!!!

PHXLavaVibe · Post by **PHXLavaVibe** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:49 am

Oh, yeah. one more thing. A majority of the stuff that was taken out of the two rooms for us to live in was taken to a storage facility. It was agreed upon before we moved in that we would share a large storage room close to the house. Nearly all of our belongings are in there along with a ton of their stuff. We are supposed to be splitting the cost of the storage unit but yet again...I am the only one paying for it.I keep getting madder and madder the more I write!!!

AKLGT · Post by **AKLGT** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:13 am

get out of there! let your dead beat parents pay their own bills.

vibebob · Post by **vibebob** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:19 am

as everyone else has said, your first and primary responsibility is to your wife and child. You must move outin order take care of YOUR family, they come first. yes, it is right to want to try to help your parents, but they don't want help, they want you to be the parent and them the child.

kunkstyle · Post by **kunkstyle** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:00 pm

Quote, originally posted by PHXLavaVibe Â»Okay, well this is turning into another novel, so I will stop now. i just had to rant a little more. Thanks for listening!!!Get the heck out. Your parents obviously don't appreciate the help and are just using you and your family to pay their bills. I see no reason to continue.

PHXLavaVibe · Post by **PHXLavaVibe** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:30 am

Time for an update...I just received the official word today that we have been approved for the apartment. Regardless of what happens we will be moving out of my parents house this weekend.Things seem to be getting worse every day with my parents. For the past few days we hardly see each other. They both spend all their time in the garage and rarely say anything to us. I don't know if it is an attempt to help keep my wife and I from arguing so much by staying away from us or if they have figured out something is in the air.At this point I really don't care what their intentions are. We have been watching what we say around them very carefully so we don't get into a big fight before we have the finances to move. The fighting between my wife and me has gotten a lot worse too, but I think that has a lot to do with the current situation and the anticipation of talking to my parents about it. I had to sit my wife down last night and convey to her just how important it is that she not blow her top too soon and start an argument with my parents.My main concern right now is making sure we have the means to move. I am not saying that it would happen, but there is a good chance that if we all get into a big argument we will be forced to move out immediately. As it is right now our bank account is in the negative so there is no way possible we could afford to move before Friday.With us moving into the apartment this weekend we will be required to pay a prorated rent for the month of January which could make it a bit tight financially for the move. Our two free months will still take effect February 1st, so we wont have to pay rent again until April 1st. Hopefully we can make arrangements with the apartment manager to where we can pay half of the prorated rent this Friday and the other half on my next payday. That would make the move much easier on us.As it is right now with the expected move this weekend we will be looking at a $300 security deposit plus around $550 for the prorated rent. Add on the $60 for a new cable modem, and roughly $60 for renting a uhaul truck and I will be looking at a grand total move in cost of around $1000.At least I didn't have to pay to have the utilities transfered into my name.

Sublimewind · Post by **Sublimewind** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:03 pm

Wow man, good luck to you... !!! And your wife is feeling the pressure, as are you.. just talk to her, let her know you feel the same and understand, but pleed with her to just give it some thought and she'll come around, knowing that you are in fact, correct.. The parents, well, that's a sad situation, I can't really relate, my parents (at least my mom) is a pretty straight shooter, I don't know where my dad would be if it wern't for her, to be honest.. I don't think he's ever had a bank account.... lol... Do your best to not burn your bridges, but also do your best to seperate you and your family from that... Mainly, KEEP YOUR CHIN UP... you are doing the best you can for YOUR family.. you got a daughter to think about..

GoodVibErations2004 · Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:19 pm

I completely feel for you. I have been financially independant since birth pretty much. I worked for every thing i had(except food and shelter until I moved out) When i did mov out I got in WAY over my head with debt, depression(which has always and will always be a problem i deal with) and drugs(as well as law enforcement). Ive been sued, arrested, and DAMN NEAR bankrupted. My parents helped me a lot and now I'm married, got a good job, drug free(though cops still make me feel like running) and on my ay to a great redit score. My parents helped but I had to do the work. I had to change,I had to live up to my responsibilities. Your parents arent doing that, and that makes me sorry.I hate to see peope struggling they way so many are these days,but so many of those people do NOTHING about it. THere is nothing more you an do exept get your wife and child out of there. I wish you the absolute best on the new place and i ruly hope everythig works out for you and your fam. Good luck

PHXLavaVibe · Post by **PHXLavaVibe** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:29 am

The poo officially hit the fan last night! I am apparently the worst kid a parent could ever have.My wife and I have been feeling a lot of guilt for planning this move behind my parents back. Me personally, I have had a lot of sleepless nights and unbearable stomach cramps anticipating the argument we had last night. I have had a complete loss of appetite and it seems everything I try to eat makes me sick. I know my wife has been going through a lot of the same feelings.Yesterday on my way home I felt really bad. Most likely it was because we got approved for the apartment and everything suddenly became real. I couldn't stop shaking all the way home. My parents were gone when I got home so they didn't see the torment I was feeling. They went to Sam's Club and bought a few grocery items they were running low on. From what my dad tells me he received some money from his parents that were in town for my cousins wedding on Saturday. The money was for my dad because Sunday was his 53rd birthday.Anyway, after I got home I gave my daughter a big hug and held her close for a while. Then I grabbed my wife and we held each other for a while as well. She could feel me shaking and asked me what was wrong. I explained to her that nothing was wrong and that it was just this whole mess that was getting to me. We talked for a while and we both decided we needed to get this ordeal over with and try to sit down and explain our situation to my parents. My parents didn't get home until about an hour after I did. I started cooking dinner for everyone in anticipation that they would be hungry when they got home. Cooking dinner was nice because after they got home they both pitched in and helped me. Dinner was nice and the air was calm. I started having second thoughts about sitting down with my parents and decided to wait a bit longer. After dinner I was fighting to keep the food down so I lay down on the floor and was blessed with the company of my daughter climbing all over me. My wife noticed my discomfort and whispered to me that she feels we really should have a sit down and talk to my parents. Seeing how I was in a lot of pain from the cramps I agreed and started preparing myself.My mom was in the garage as usual after dinner, and my dad was in the other room looking at maps for the location of his inspections he was assigned to do this morning. I went out into the garage had a smoke my self and once done I mustered up the nerve to approach my mom. I walked over to where she was sitting playing on her lap top and I asked her for a hug. By the time she stood up my eyes were full of tears. We hugged for a bit as she tried to comfort me, asking what was wrong. After a minute or two I told her we have to talk. I walked out of the garage still teary eyed and approached my dad the same way. He too, tried to comfort me as I cried in his arms. I told him that we needed to talk and then we all joined up at the dinning room table. We all sat there in silence for a while as I tried to hold back the tears in order for me to talk. After calming down a little I explained to them that I had to make the hardest decision I have ever been faced with. I told them that my wife and I had been talking a lot lately and we decided that it is time for us to move out. My mom interrupted at that point in a very stern questionable tone â€œYouâ€™re moving out?â€ I continued explaining that the current situation is having a dramatic effect on our marriage and that to make sure my family stays in tact we have to leave. I put a strong emphasis on the fact that I had to put my foot down and make the decision to pull us out of a bad situation. Surprisingly at this point my dad said that he understands and that you have to do what you have to do for your family. It seemed for a brief moment there that he actually understood me and the hard decisions I have had to make.Then he says that he realizes itâ€™s not my faultâ€¦and then abruptly points at my wife and says that you are the one causing all these problems! You are the one that has been miserable since the first day you guys moved in. You have been complaining about every little thing and making us all upset. Voices get raised and he proceeds to tell her that from the very beginning she has kept her distance and tried to keep herself apart from this family. My wife fights back explaining as she has before several times that she has a major problem with parental figures. After all the abuse and mistreatment she has been through growing up it is extremely difficult for her to accept the affections of â€œParentsâ€. Keeping her distance is her way of protecting herself from being hurt again.A lot of things were said between them and most of it I donâ€™t remember. I know at one point my wife felt as if she was being accused of being a spoiled little (Female dog) so she came right out and said â€œI guess I am just a spoiled little (female dog) thenâ€. After which my dad gets very sarcastic and says â€œthatâ€™s exactly what you are!â€ He verbally attacked my wife on several occasions during this discussion in which I had to put him in check. I tried being a reasonable adult and really fought back from jumping over the table and beating him down to the floor. I tried to keep the peace between them by interrupting their arguments and calming things down when they got too heated. My dadâ€™s explanation for his blatant rudeness was that she was doing the same thing to them. I must have been completely out of it because I never once heard my wife or myself for that matter do any name calling or insinuations. About fifteen minutes into the argument my dad asks when we are moving and as I try explaining that we will be leaving this weekend he starts saying that he wants us to start packing and leave right now and points to the door. We sat there and kept the discussion going about how we canâ€™t leave until Friday due to us not having any money at the moment. My dad takes this as meaning that we must have already spent all our money paying for this apartment instead of helping with their bills. I explained that so far up to date we havenâ€™t had to pay a sent for this apartment and that all of our money went to paying bills. I donâ€™t think he believes me at this point. Both of my parents truly feel that we are abandoning them at this point. My dadâ€™s way of thinking is that with us being there and paying the bills everything is fine. He has said on several occasions throughout our stay that regardless of how much we are paying it isnâ€™t much different than if we were out on our own. This is true to some degree, but what he doesnâ€™t seem to realize is that we are paying out a lot more than we ever have before. There are a lot of bills that we are paying now that we never had to pay before. The bills that we do normally pay when out on our own have doubled and with very little income being brought in by my parents all the stress is on me. Either way it is blatantly obvious and has been made clear by both of my parents that because of us moving out and leaving them in the same situation they were in before we moved inâ€¦everything is now our fault! It is our fault that they are going to lose their house. It is our fault that my dad may end up losing his job (due to us not paying the bills anymoreâ€¦therefore my dad will no longer be able to receive emails from work assigning him inspections). It is our fault that they will have to sell everything they own. It is our fault that they will be out on the street. I tried explaining to them that their financial obligations are not our responsibilities and that it is not our fault. Regardless of what I say they will always blame us now! They have really made us feel guilty about all of this. Top all that off with the fact that right after the argument my mom gets on the phone with my brother. I know she made us out to be horrible and tried to gain his support on their behalf. What she doesnâ€™t realize is that my brother and I have talked about all of this. In fact I showed him this website and read everything that has been written about t
his topic to him, including all of your responses. He agrees with everyone and I am fairly certain he has my back on this. I havenâ€™t talked to him since the argument so I am not so sure he still does though. I am fairly certain they will talk to other family members as well which will inevitably make us out to be horrible people and probably turn my entire family against us.My dad is questioning my family values and thinks that by us leaving that I donâ€™t care about our family. â€œFamily is supposed to stick together and help each other out until the end.â€ Oh, and according to them our marriage is doomed anyway. They said something about us obviously not loving each other enough to be able to stick it out through this disaster and manage our marriage. They think we are copping out and running away at the first sign of trouble. News Break!!! We are moving out to save our marriage! I will do anything for the sake of my wife and daughter and there is absolutely no doubt about much I love them. My wife did mention to me after the argument last night that she had considered moving herself and my daughter in with one of her friends to help ease the tension between all of us. She said that she never would have done it, but the thought did cross her mind. Even the thought of that is proof that we have been in this situation way too long.I just donâ€™t know what to think anymore. I feel we are doing the right thing but I just donâ€™t know. My dad did ask us after the argument was over if we were still intent on moving out. My response to him wasâ€¦â€Definitely now! Too much has been said that can never be taken back.â€ He just kind of nodded his head and remained silent. A few minutes later he acknowledged that even if we wanted to stay, things just wouldnâ€™t work out. He even said at one point during the argument that it seems all we did was postpone the inevitable. So all in allâ€¦things went just about as bad as I expected they would. My extended family will probably hate us for the rest of time. Hopefully one day things will get better and we can all recover. In the mean time my wife and I are very happy that we are getting out of this situation and we should be back to normal in no time. Thank you all for putting up with me through all of this. I donâ€™t have anyone else I can talk to so I really appreciate your responses. It helps to release my tensionsâ€¦even if it is to people on a car forum that I have never met in person.

michaelgt · Post by **michaelgt** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:51 am

Saying a prayer for your family. Having the ability to share your feelings should help. With time, you will see that you made the correct decision.

jimincalif · Post by **jimincalif** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:32 am

You're doing the right thing, you're doing the right thing, you're doing the right thing. Keep telling yourself - you're doing the right thing.It is inexcusable for your parents to attack your wife like that. It is apparent that this was inevitable, and you were exactly right to say that too much has been said and that you were postponing the inevitable. You tried to help them, it didn't work, you have to move on.Good luck.

AKLGT · Post by **AKLGT** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:44 am

You are doing the right thing for YOUR family, not theirs. They had their chance to make things right, put forth the effort to share in the bills, but they didn't. Time for you to move on. It's not your fault they don't know how to manage their money. You need to concentrate on your wife and your daughter because that's what's important. Hopefully your wife understands the anguish and pain you have gone through during this entire ordeal. if she doesn't just point her to this thread and perhaps she will see the turmoil and emotional trauma this situation has caused. I'm glad you're getting out of there so soon because any more time there, I fear that you would end up in an emotional break down (if it hasn't already). If anything happened to my parents or parent, we would gladly move them into our home (I know Mavrik knows this already) and either of them would work to help us out with bills. Though I have made my own financial mistakes, my parents have not. Keep your head up as the light is at the end of the tunnel now and you are close to starting a new life with your family.

keithvibe · Post by **keithvibe** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:59 am

If you were as articulate in your talk with your parents as you are here. There is no reason for you to feel any remorse for doing what you felt was needed.You have a good head on your shoulders. Your wife is lucky, and your daughter is as well.I commend you for sticking to your guns and not decking your father. I know I would have gotten in my fathers face, or laid him out flat on his kester, if he ever called my wife what your father called your wife.If your parents are as transparent as they seems to be at hiding their mistakes in managing their money, I wouldn't worry too much about your relatives labeling you as the black sheep.

Nelson · Post by **Nelson** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:20 pm

Prayers for you, brother.Take care of yourself and your primary responsibilities (wife and daughter). Don't get negative!

kunkstyle · Post by **kunkstyle** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:35 pm

Wow - that's about all I can say. Kudos for handling things as well as you are. I can't say I would have kept any composure in that situation. To basically blame your wife for their financial problems/lack of financial support is unnacceptable. Quote, originally posted by PHXLavaVibe Â»"Family is supposed to stick together and help each other out until the end."What a guilt laden statement. I do believe that that's exactly what you're doing. Sticking with YOUR family. Helping out and moral support doesn't mean paying bills for your parents and being a sole provider. If they aren't willing to try and help themselves why should you be stuck in that position. Quote, originally posted by PHXLavaVibe Â»My extended family will probably hate us for the rest of time.So be it. You and your family know the truth and stuck together. That's the important part.Hang in there!

ou.grizzly · Post by **ou.grizzly** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:42 pm

Both of your parents seem to be enabling each other. You are making the right move by moving out. What the difficult part will be if your parents do loose their jobs, the house, become homeless, and become ill.This is going to be a long road and be prepared for more heartache. It is a shame.Just remember, people tend to get nasty and say things in the heat of the moment they do not mean.

PHXLavaVibe · Post by **PHXLavaVibe** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:50 am

Thanks again everyone for your input. It is good to know that everyone supports me and my decision. I really can't wait until Friday rolls around! The last two days have been fairly uneventfull but I can tell they are about ready to blow up at me again. My wife and I were able to chat a little with my dad although it had nothing to do with our situation. We are all pretty much trying to stay away from each other to avoid any more confrontations. My wife and daughter stayed up in our bedroom all day yesterday until I got home from work. After I got home we started packing and eventually went down stairs. My dad sat at the table watching tv for the most part and barely said a word to us. It wasn't until we started laughing at a commercial that we were able to exchange a few words. Other than talking about random stuff on tv we all remained silent. At one point my wife and daughter went back up stairs and I talked with my dad. I asked him what the plans were for dinner. He said he didn't know and that my mom was still up in bed. Apparently she never went to bed Monday night and had attempted to go to sleep somewhere around 10am Tuesday morning. Then she got back up at 10:30am and finally went back to bed around 2pm. So anyway, he said that we could help ourselves to leftovers. He also told me that he lost his appetite and probably wouldn't eat for a while. This conversation pretty much told me that my mom was so upset with us that she couldn't sleep and that my dad was upset with us as well. He did mention that he didn't sleep very well that night either. So, yet again I was left feeling guilty because it seems they are blaming their lack of sleep and appetite on us as well. Is this another guilt trip? I kinda feel like it was ment to be. After that conversation I mentioned to my dad that I know we are all trying to keep our distance and avoid conflict, but I would hope that when it comes to dinner time we could all at least act a little civilized and sit down together. He nodded his head and seemed to agree, but right as I walked away he took another attempt to make me feel guilty by saying that he realizes they have made our lives absolutely unbearable and that he felt it best to just shut up and not say anything to us. I didn't respond to his comment. I went back upstairs and talked my wife into coming back down stairs so we could eat. We heated up some leftovers...my dad actually had some himself...and then we proceded back up stairs for the night.My mom on the other hand is completely ignoring us. She walks past us as if we are not even there. She doesn't even respond to my daughters attempt to get her attention. I have seen her a couple times since the big fight and have been blatently ignored when I would say hi. This morning as I was gathering my stuff to leave for work I noticed that she had left me a little sticky note on my pack of cigarettes. It reads:"Still breaking 'emStill changing 'emStill running from 'emYour life's pattern!It'll never change"I am not sure exactly what she was trying to say with that but I take it she is saying that I am still breaking all my promises, changing all my promises to suit me, still running from my problems, and that I always have and always will.I don't know where she gets off saying such things. To me this is the perfect example of how they have been living their lives. I am not running away from my own problems but I am running away from theirs...especially before they end up becoming mine!

ou.grizzly · Post by **ou.grizzly** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:43 am

Quote, originally posted by PHXLavaVibe Â»Thanks again everyone for your input. It is good to know that everyone supports me and my decision. I really can't wait until Friday rolls around! The last two days have been fairly uneventfull but I can tell they are about ready to blow up at me again. My wife and I were able to chat a little with my dad although it had nothing to do with our situation. We are all pretty much trying to stay away from each other to avoid any more confrontations. My wife and daughter stayed up in our bedroom all day yesterday until I got home from work. After I got home we started packing and eventually went down stairs. My dad sat at the table watching tv for the most part and barely said a word to us. It wasn't until we started laughing at a commercial that we were able to exchange a few words. Other than talking about random stuff on tv we all remained silent. At one point my wife and daughter went back up stairs and I talked with my dad. I asked him what the plans were for dinner. He said he didn't know and that my mom was still up in bed. Apparently she never went to bed Monday night and had attempted to go to sleep somewhere around 10am Tuesday morning. Then she got back up at 10:30am and finally went back to bed around 2pm. So anyway, he said that we could help ourselves to leftovers. He also told me that he lost his appetite and probably wouldn't eat for a while. This conversation pretty much told me that my mom was so upset with us that she couldn't sleep and that my dad was upset with us as well. He did mention that he didn't sleep very well that night either. So, yet again I was left feeling guilty because it seems they are blaming their lack of sleep and appetite on us as well. Is this another guilt trip? I kinda feel like it was ment to be. After that conversation I mentioned to my dad that I know we are all trying to keep our distance and avoid conflict, but I would hope that when it comes to dinner time we could all at least act a little civilized and sit down together. He nodded his head and seemed to agree, but right as I walked away he took another attempt to make me feel guilty by saying that he realizes they have made our lives absolutely unbearable and that he felt it best to just shut up and not say anything to us. I didn't respond to his comment. I went back upstairs and talked my wife into coming back down stairs so we could eat. We heated up some leftovers...my dad actually had some himself...and then we proceded back up stairs for the night.My mom on the other hand is completely ignoring us. She walks past us as if we are not even there. She doesn't even respond to my daughters attempt to get her attention. I have seen her a couple times since the big fight and have been blatently ignored when I would say hi. This morning as I was gathering my stuff to leave for work I noticed that she had left me a little sticky note on my pack of cigarettes. It reads:"Still breaking 'emStill changing 'emStill running from 'emYour life's pattern!It'll never change"I am not sure exactly what she was trying to say with that but I take it she is saying that I am still breaking all my promises, changing all my promises to suit me, still running from my problems, and that I always have and always will.I don't know where she gets off saying such things. To me this is the perfect example of how they have been living their lives. I am not running away from my own problems but I am running away from theirs...especially before they end up becoming mine!Your dad may or may not be trying to make you feel guilty. He might be expressing his feelings to you and realized how much he as put on your marriage mentally and financially. Be a little more open and not so defensive. Your mom is still communicating to you through messages, so she is not completely ignoring you yet. She is also hurt and is the type to let you know it. Let her do what she may, but she is only hurting herself by pushing you farther away. In time she will realize she made a mistake especially when she misses her grand-daughter. Family Dynamics is always strained at one point or another. When we are children, are parents sacrifice to provide for their children. Sometimes the parents are unable to take care of themselves and the children have to become parents to the parents. Give it be due to financial or health related issues. This is what one or both of your parents are feeling right now, helpless, worries, hurt, and anger. If they are able to get their finances in order, then maybe the relationship can be healed. If your parents are not helping the matter and will not confront they have issues handling the finances, then unfortunately they will not learn. I know it is hard not to take it personally, but try not to take it to heart. Anyone who truly cared for another would never pit someone against another (ex: your parents making you choose between them and your wife). That is jealousy, want, and greed, not true healthy compassion and love. This works both ways though, remember that.

Sublimewind · Post by **Sublimewind** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:44 am

Such a shame man, but you are doing the right thing... Hopefully in time, you can have a less heated talk with them and possibly put some of this to rest... I personally feel that they are projecting thier own guilt onto you... They know they haven't made the right choices, but at this point what are they going to do? Guilt you into feeling sorry for all of it.. Well, you have a family to worry about, if they can't understand that, well tough.. I don't think they are upset with you or your family, I'm betting that they are really upset with themselves... regardless it's a sad situation... Point them toward public assistance (if they are't doing that already)I really feel for you man, my family means everything to me and while I can't simpithise (SP?) I can empithise with you... My world would end if I fell into this situation.. Still, you GOTTA KEEP YOUR HEAD UP.... if not for yourself, for your daughter... My GF's mom acts a lot like your parents, always has... In fact, she was so bent over having my GF, she didn't even see her for the first 2 weeks she was alive... every time they tried to bring her into the room, she would light a cigerette.. (when they still allowed smoking, which lead to a full histroectomy(SP?)) Just this Thanksgiving, her dad came into some money and wanted to buy his daughter a diamond ring (a small one) well, it was bought, we went to see them and mom wasn't home, so dad went ahead and gave her the ring.... Mom didn't seem to mind at the time... fast forward to 2 days before xmas and my GF gets a call from mom, she's ranting on about somthing, says that my GF ruined xMas because she opened the ring without her being there.... blah blah blah.... then proceeded to throw the tree down the basment stairs, followed by her porcilin nativity set... acting like a 14yr old mad at the world... Old people are crazy... lol..

AKLGT · Post by **AKLGT** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:26 am

Quote, originally posted by ou.grizzly Â»Your dad may or may not be trying to make you feel guilty. He might be expressing his feelings to you and realized how much he as put on your marriage mentally and financially. Be a little more open and not so defensive. Your mom is still communicating to you through messages, so she is not completely ignoring you yet. She is also hurt and is the type to let you know it. Let her do what she may, but she is only hurting herself by pushing you farther away. In time she will realize she made a mistake especially when she misses her grand-daughter. Family Dynamics is always strained at one point or another. When we are children, are parents sacrifice to provide for their children. Sometimes the parents are unable to take care of themselves and the children have to become parents to the parents. Give it be due to financial or health related issues. This is what one or both of your parents are feeling right now, helpless, worries, hurt, and anger. If they are able to get their finances in order, then maybe the relationship can be healed. If your parents are not helping the matter and will not confront they have issues handling the finances, then unfortunately they will not learn. I know it is hard not to take it personally, but try not to take it to heart. Anyone who truly cared for another would never pit someone against another (ex: your parents making you choose between them and your wife). That is jealousy, want, and greed, not true healthy compassion and love. This works both ways though, remember that. agreed. perhaps your father is feeling guilt for the issues he has caused you? It sounds like it's going both ways. Remember, your mother is probably still in denial and depression, so most things that come out of her mouth or from her will be self serving and self centered. You have to remember not to take it literal because she will probably continue her attacks and blame on you (without truly meaning it). Give them both a little time, and perhaps in a few days, even after you have moved out, you will be able to talk and discuss things more. Remember, being in such tight quarters causes a lot of stress and emotions, so perhaps they just need space (as do you). And if your mom is communicating to you via letters, write her back and express to her how you feel. Don't play the blame game, but reassure her that you still love her, after all she's still your mother. Sometimes little things like that can go a long way. Now, I'm not saying that she will have that light bulb come on, she is in a depressive state, but later when she's hopefully not so emotional, she can look back at your letter/card/note/whatever and see it for it's real value.Good luck!

Celtic_Curse · Post by **Celtic_Curse** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:26 am

Dude I totaly can relate to your situation, very simular to mine including the guilt tripping Mother. As a son you have already done more than any friend or stranger would have done. My advise is to leave if their comfert is more inportant than your baby then I think you can figure out that your nothing more than another credit card to them that will never be paid back.Leave your parents home and save your marriage and sanity...they made their bed now its time to lie in it. You've done way more than they (in my opinion) deserve.

vibebob · Post by **vibebob** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:18 am

to me it sounds like your dad has realised that the gravy train is leaving the station and is making a last ditch effort to derail it.I know all about the kids being parents to their parents. I have my 88 year old father living with me. In short, before Medicare took over he went through all of his savings, $100,000 taking care of his wife who had alzheimers (she died of it). Medicare won't pay a dime if you have assests, such as money in the bank. after she died all he had at that point and now is social security, which doesn't go far. 5 years ago I moved him in with me, yeah it has been a life changing experience for me (was used to coming and going as I pleased) and a major pain in the asp but I deal with it.

PHXLavaVibe · Post by **PHXLavaVibe** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:44 am

Quote, originally posted by ou.grizzly Â»Your dad may or may not be trying to make you feel guilty. He might be expressing his feelings to you and realized how much he as put on your marriage mentally and financially. Be a little more open and not so defensive. Your mom is still communicating to you through messages, so she is not completely ignoring you yet. She is also hurt and is the type to let you know it. Let her do what she may, but she is only hurting herself by pushing you farther away. In time she will realize she made a mistake especially when she misses her grand-daughter. Family Dynamics is always strained at one point or another. When we are children, are parents sacrifice to provide for their children. Sometimes the parents are unable to take care of themselves and the children have to become parents to the parents. Give it be due to financial or health related issues. This is what one or both of your parents are feeling right now, helpless, worries, hurt, and anger. If they are able to get their finances in order, then maybe the relationship can be healed. If your parents are not helping the matter and will not confront they have issues handling the finances, then unfortunately they will not learn. I know it is hard not to take it personally, but try not to take it to heart. Anyone who truly cared for another would never pit someone against another (ex: your parents making you choose between them and your wife). That is jealousy, want, and greed, not true healthy compassion and love. This works both ways though, remember that. You may very well be right about my dad's intentions. The way he said it though came accross as very sarcastic. I am sure in some way though he realizes that he was wrong to put the blame on us. I am fairly certain though that the little note my mother left me was a direct attempt to attack me or make me feel worse than I already do. I just don't know anymore. Hopefully down the road we can all sit down and talk again and reach some sort of closure.Last night after I got home from work I approached my dad. I know they don't have a lot as far as groceries so I was concerned. As I have mentioned before in previous posts I have been the one buying all the groceries for the past few months. Usually my wife and I will go grocery shopping on the Wednedsday before my payday. It's not the smartest thing in the world to do but I have always been able to write a personal check at the grocery store and it wouldn't hit my account until the following monday after I got paid. Anyway, as I said, i approched my dad and asked him politely what he wanted to do as far as groceries, and if he would like to go to the store with me so he could pick out whatever they want. He smiled at me a little and said "I don't know, what's the plan?" I replied to him in a friendly manner saying "I don't know, that's why I was asking you." He then proceded to ask me if we were planning to set them up with enough groceries to last them for a while or if we were just going to buy enough to last them a couple days. I then told him that it would be up to them, and that as long as he keeps it under $300 he could do what ever he wants. I told him that with us not knowing exactly how much this move is going to cost us yet, this is all we can safely spare at the moment. I know they are worried about paying their bills now that we are moving out, so I also mentioned that if he would prefer I could just give them the money and they could decide what they want to do from there. I also said that either way I needed to go to the grocery store anyway to get a few things for us. My dad said that they still have plenty of food to last them a while and that it would probably be best if they just take the money instead. That way, they could pay some small bills or whatever. I then reminded him that I don't officially get paid until Friday and that I could write him a check now but he wouldn't be able to cash it until Friday. He told that that's fine and every little bit helps. So, I proceded to write him a check and then handed it to him saying that after the move is finalized and we figure out our finances I may be able to send a little more their way, but I am really not sure at this point. He thanked me a couple times after taking the check and we left it at that.It may just be me but it seems that they do not want to eat with us anymore so I figured I would go to the store and get a couple frozen dinners for my wife and I so they don't have to worry about sitting down to eat with us. Plus with us leaving I don't want to make them feel that they have to share anymore of their food with us. I figured it would just be easier on all of us if we do our own thing for dinner.So anyway, I told my dad that I was going to pick up a couple frozen dinners for my wife and I to last us till the move. He said okay, then asked me if I wanted him to start making dinner for everyone while I was gone. I chuckeld a little and politely told him no and that I will throw something in the microwave for my wife and I when I get back from the store. As it were, it was already going on 9pm and I was getting tired from pulling off an extra long day at work. Later that night after my wife and I started eating, my dad came out of the garage and again we received the silent treatment. He did say hi to my daughter who was going to town on some snacks in her high chair. A little later my mom came out of the garage for a couple minutes to use the restroom. She still walks by us all without saying a word or even the slightest glance. Then after a few minutes they both went back into the garage. I was left with the impression that they were upset or hurt that we didn't buy them anything. We finished eating and then proceded back up stairs to our room for the night. At one point I left the room and crossed the hall to use the restroom and I noticed that my parents were in the living room. I am not sure what they were talking about but I know my mom was crying and my dad mentioned something about working in a wharehouse. I went back to our room and decided to let them be. I am glad they are taking things seriously now, but I am saddened that it has taken them this long to realize just how bad things have gotten and what they need to do to fix it. I can't believe it had to come down to us moving out in order for them to start taking control of the situation.I can't help but wonder what today has in store.

GoodVibErations2004 · Post by **GoodVibErations2004** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:19 am

Man for you to be in the situation you are in effin blos! but for you to handle it as well as you are and to coe out of it better off than before(with your daughter and wife), thats PRICELESS. every hadship we sruggle with and every day we make it through STRENGTHENS the relationships we share and the life we lead. you are doing the BEST thing possible for you and your family. that includes your parents. The best thing my parents ever did was STOP supporting me financially and CUT me off completely. I had 2 choices. LIVE or DIE. Your parents will one day be able to look back and realize that wha you are doing is the hardest thing youve ever had to do. they wil realize that it was the right thing to do. GOD be with yu, my wife and I are keping you and your family in our prayers. God bless

jimincalif · Post by **jimincalif** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:22 am

Quote, originally posted by PHXLavaVibe Â»So, I proceded to write him a check and then handed it to him saying that after the move is finalized and we figure out our finances I may be able to send a little more their way, but I am really not sure at this point.You are being very generous, probably a good thing to do until you get moved. But once moved, you need to build up a financial reserve. You have a wife and now a child, and they are your primary responsibility. Take advantage of your rent waiver and save some money, as a parent you should have as a minimum 6 months of basic living expenses. This has to take priority over helping your parents. You don't want your family out on the street if something happens to you or your job.Also, if you don't have any life insurance, please buy some, for your daughter's sake. Term insurance is pretty inexpensive. Again, this should also take priority over helping your parents. Only after you have your own finances on firm ground can you look at helping them.

joatmon · Post by **joatmon** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:14 am

I can't relate to the concept of expecting children to somehow repay the parents for their upbringing. I'm a parent, I raised my kids because I love them, not because of some anticipated future financial benefits. Maybe they are stressed, and not thinking clearly lately. They seem to be treating you in a heartless manner, try to keep that from causing a permanent strife. Maybe the local government or some social organization offers free financial counseling. Your parents need to make some hard choices and find a way to live within their means.The choices you are being forced to make are very hard. I think you are doing the right thing. Hopefully life will be calmer when you have your own space. Hang in there.

engineertwin2 · Post by **engineertwin2** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:14 pm

Man I'm late to this game and I've missed a lot...Phx, the hardest thing I've ever done is to decide I will not feel guilty for my parents and the situations they place themselves in. You seem to try to "fix" problems - don't be the fixer. By trying to be generous and help them out because they guilt you doesn't serve anyone. That fails to empower your parents to help themselves out.Everyone here is right. You owe your parents nothing for what they have given you (and your brother) or provided when you were younger. You already know this because you provide for your daughter absolutely and unconditionally. Your providing for her is an obligation that you meet out of necessity and love.The best thing you can do is stop. Stop offering to buy your parents things when you feel guilty. They've made some bad decisions and they'll get through this, but you aren't really helping them get through it - you are enabling them to not change.I wish that in reading the posts I felt that you interjected quicker to defend your wife, but I'm not sure I get that from the readings. Not to suggest you haven't, but if you have been slow to emphatically defend your wife, you may have inadvertently given them permission to blame her. Don't even let her defend herself - cut them off as soon as they "pass the buck".Moving out is a good decision, but I think you need to follow through and make the decision (and stand by it) that if your parents situation becomes worse, you will not allow them to move back in and poison your marriage.Congrats on the move, and this too, shall pass.

PHXLavaVibe · Post by **PHXLavaVibe** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:31 am

WE'RE FREE!!!!!!!!!!I can't thank you all enough for all the wonderful support and encouragement, but THANK YOU!!!Without writing another novel I wanted to let you all know that we were able to move out with no problems. I was up Friday morning before the first sign of daylight loading up the highlander! We drove over to Uhaul and then met up with a buddy of mine for breakfast. After breakfast we all proceded to the new apartment where my wife and I signed our new lease. As soon as we got the keys to our apartment we got started with the move. My wife and daughter ended up staying at the apartment so my buddy and I could do all the loading/unloading of the Uhaul. Everything went fairly smooth. My dad was surprisingly out on an inspection Friday morning. My mom on the other hand was waiting for us in the front yard as soon as we pulled up in the truck. She hovered over us the entire time we were loading up the truck. She never said anything to us other than to ask me to return my set of house keys. She watched our every move almost as if she was expecting us to steal something of theirs. We were able to get everything out of the house and storage room by 1pm on Friday. We still have a little bit of unpacking to do, but we are finished for the most part. All that's left is to unpack our paintings and decorations and start hanging stuff on the walls. We are all feeling a bit sore and stiff from the move, but I must admit...We sure have been sleeping good!!!We are very happy now and things seem to be getting much better now that we are out of that house. My daughter is extreamly happy with our new home. She runs all over the place smiling. There is a lot of space for her to play in the apartment and a huge grass area right outside our door that she can enjoy as well. I can't wait to get her one of those little Power Wheels!Well anyway, Thanks againg for all your support! You guys and gals have been a great help.

BlueCrush · Post by **BlueCrush** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:37 am

Congrats! Glad to see you were able to get out of there in one piece. Hope you and your wife enjoy your new start. You may want to get a sitter and take you wife out to a nice dinner(when you get the $) to thank her for putting up with the situation and to celebrate a new beginning.

AKLGT · Post by **AKLGT** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:24 am

great news! glad you're out and now time to rebuild and concentrate on your family.

kunkstyle · Post by **kunkstyle** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:46 am

Congrats!! Enjoy the new apartment - you guys deserve it.

keithvibe · Post by **keithvibe** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:15 am

when you get settled post photos of the new pad.... i am sure we would all love to see it being you have talked so much about it.

Sublimewind · Post by **Sublimewind** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:09 am

Good 4 you man, glad things are somewhat normal, these days... Time should heal... who knows though.. .Keep ya head up..

jimincalif · Post by **jimincalif** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:50 pm

Glad to hear it, I am happy for you and your wife and daughter.

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