Some electrical system annoyances (Headlamps, Blower, etc)

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BustedVibe
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Wisconsin

Some electrical system annoyances (Headlamps, Blower, etc)

Post by BustedVibe »

So a few facts to start with..

'04 Base 2WD
I don't know the absolute specs on my current battery. All I know is it has decent CCA (its deathly cold but I manage to get it to turn over in -25 weather so far after 1 or 2 attempts)

The charging system has been modified. I have a hand built alternator from Mike Singer, which I originally bought to power a high current audio system I've yet to get around to installing, etc.. not quite sure where the certificate for it is, but it's easily in the 100A - 170A Peak range. It's a drop-in and came with a smaller pulley, my mechanic was able to find a shorter belt to put on and he's done other work (A/C etc) so I would assume if the belt were ever a problem he would have mentioned it. Alternator has been in car for almost 3 years now.

The charge cable from the battery to alternator is 1/0 gauge, and there is a 1/0 gauge ground from the battery to chassis ground.

My blower motor IS on the way out, but I think this issue is separate from that.. I have replacement OEM headlamps installed roughly a year ago with w/e bulbs they came with. when I replace the motor I also plan to replace the blower motor resistor.

I have not paid attention over the life of vehicle ownership unfortunately. But these are things I've noticed which have bugged me a lot.

Headlamps dim when idle. I notice it a lot when parking the car, or going on during the night. I notice it sometimes at intersections when stopped and resuming, stop signs in dark areas, etc. Back on throttle and they light up a bit more.

Blower motor seems to change speed with regards to engine RPMs as well. I usually notice it the most when the blower is set to the highest speed. It doesn't seem variable, it just drops a certain amount until back on throttle again.


I am wondering if a bigger battery might be an option here (how do you fit a bigger battery in this damn car without robbing a bank??) I ask if this might be the issue because I found a thread elsewhere on here where someone was asking about lights dimming when 2 or more window switches were activated, etc and a larger capacity battery was mentioned as a remedy.

The car appears to run fine other than this. Although I have noticed that in extremely cold weather the car seems to need to warm up for a bit before my cigarette lighter appliances will actually start charging, etc. But I have not had chronic issues with batteries dying or lights going crazy dim or anything like that.

I'm thinking the blower motor issue may be completely separate here, as its really the only one that stands out as being an odd duck among the other electrical related issues.
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andrewclaus
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Re: Some electrical system annoyances (Headlamps, Blower, etc)

Post by andrewclaus »

Can you check the voltage at various rpms? It sounds like the voltage regulator (part of the alternator) might be bad. If the regulator is bad, you may also be getting an overvoltage at high rpms, so you should check that soon. That can be damaging.

It sounds like you're not sure if the problem existed before the alternator change? Any chance you still have the old alternator and belt?

I'm sure you know, parts stores will run a test for free.

If you haven't added a lot of extra load yet, I don't think the problem is caused by a small battery.
BustedVibe
Posts: 139
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Location: Wisconsin

Re: Some electrical system annoyances (Headlamps, Blower, etc)

Post by BustedVibe »

Yeah I'm unsure if the problem existed before.

I do have the OEM alternator, but I didn't change it myself so I'm hoping I'd not have to go through that. Can it be tested on the car reliably?

I do have a DMM so I can look into checking the voltages when I have some free time. Not familiar with that procedure though.

I hope its not the case though.

I don't have issues with flickering gauges or other equipment, nor or erratic readings.. So far the battery has held up and its the only one I've had to buy since I got the car (came with one that was old).

edit: had a short amount of time to kill. So with the car having been running for almost an hour I went out and tested it at the battery terminals

With daytime running lights on, blow on high, radio/factory amp turned on
idle in Park: ~1000 RPM / 14.3V
idle in drive: ~800RPM / 14.17 - 14.18
Battery voltage with the car off was 12.92V IIRC
it dropped down to 12.74/12.75 on a measurement I took just now before starting it again.
Voltage drop results were a little wonky (negative battery to alternator casing) but might have been because I was in auto-ranging mode, or maybe the connection changed as I held the leads down. I saw stuff from .009 to .001 not sure if the negative charge was indicated on that high .009 result or not.

What RPM should I look at for load testing?

I can't test load w/AC on currently as I seem to be having problems with my clutch/compressor. I had the magnetic clutch replaced in May last year although now I think I shouldn't have cheaped out and should have done the whole clutch/compressor assembly. It seems to want to turn on intermittently so I wonder if the replacement is crap too (or maybe its the extreme cold idk).

I'll have to write up a plan of data to collect and write down, hopefully with wrangling up a helper to assist me.
Any input on data points I should collect and how to best obtain them would be good.
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jolt
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Re: Some electrical system annoyances (Headlamps, Blower, etc)

Post by jolt »

BustedVibe wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:44 am It's a drop-in and came with a smaller pulley, my mechanic was able to find a shorter belt to put on and he's done other work (A/C etc) so I would assume if the belt were ever a problem he would have mentioned it. Alternator has been in car for almost 3 years now.

If you do not want the lights to dim at idle then you need content voltage. You do not have that by the numbers you have provided. I am sure that if you you checked the amp draw, you would find that the amperage is going up and down along with the voltage as engine RPM's change. Check the amp output from the alternator.

I would put the old alternator and belt back on, if they are good and check RPM vs voltage again. Your pulling more current than the system can provide at idle right now. As for a bad voltage regulator, that is possible but most new cars have the voltage regulator built into the ECM. ECM are not cheap and must be programmed to the car. Voltage is an indicator but is not power. Amperage (power) is what you are looking for; measure the amp's. Leave your headlights on for 10 ~ 15 minutes with the engine off, draining the battery down. Then start the engine with an amp meter hooked up and check the output of your alternator. That should now be the full output of the alternator as it is trying the charge the weak battery and power the car. Look at the output amperage at idle. Alternator output is a function of the RPM's. The higher the RPM's, the higher the output; up to a given point. A smaller pulley will give you more RPM at the alt but may also cause more slippage of the belt on the pulley and higher belt wear. To get more power out of the alternator, more power must be put into the alternator and that is provided that the alternator is any good to began with. Another thing is that more power creates more heat from the alt. and wear and tear.....your high output alternator may just be worn out. Once again, check your amperage output.
Bookworm
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Re: Some electrical system annoyances (Headlamps, Blower, etc)

Post by Bookworm »

I have to wonder about the smaller pulley wheel. Rotational speed is often important, but if you've already been using it for 3 years, I suppose it's fine.

As for the dimming for the window regulators, and headlights - they're very dependent on the overall system voltage. The regulator motors are NOT weak - they pull a pretty good amount of power from the system, which will pull your system voltage down from the 14 volt range into the 12-13 volt range. 5-10% is enough of a power loss to notice your lights visibly dimming, while not actually affecting your car's electrical system.

I personally have never heard of the voltage regulator being built into the ECM system. It's usually right in (or on) the alternator itself. It kind of has to be right next to the (removed) to properly control it. Remember, these aren't generators, they're alternators. (ECM, of course, then often controls the regulator module)

https://www.carparts.com/classroom/charging.htm

A larger battery doesn't really help much of anything - the battery voltage maxes out, normally, at around 12.9 to 13 volts. Adding battery capacity adds amperage without adding voltage. Basically, you get more capacity, but no more pressure. (Using a water analogy)
BustedVibe
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Re: Some electrical system annoyances (Headlamps, Blower, etc)

Post by BustedVibe »

I don't think I have the tool / accessory I need to measure amps. But I'm having an oil change Tuesday morning so I'll talk to my mechanic about it I suppose.

re: the small pulley wheel, I bought the alternator purpose specific for outputting high amps (max is around 170A) at operating RPMs, so maybe that has something to do with it, but I'm pretty sure it should be putting out at least close to the OEM units max output at idle. I guess we'll know more once I am able to get some measurements taken. As of right now putting the factory alternator back on is really not an option, and the car seems to run / charge fine otherwise so I don't think its a dire situation or anything.

My dad suggested I ask my mechanic if its also a loose belt (maybe my tensioner is going?), so I will look into that as well. Will report back here when I know more.
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BustedVibe
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Re: Some electrical system annoyances (Headlamps, Blower, etc)

Post by BustedVibe »

:edit: dumb (removed) question removed lol
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andrewclaus
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Re: Some electrical system annoyances (Headlamps, Blower, etc)

Post by andrewclaus »

I would try to reproduce the problem conditions, where headlights are dim at idle and noticeably brighter with higher rpms, and check battery voltage then. If you don't know how to work the throttle safely while working under the hood, get an assistant as noted above.

Again, get a parts store to do a free system check.

It sounds like your battery is okay, given those voltage readings.

To check alternator output, you'll need a clamp-on DC ammeter, which is not a typical household item.

For further load testing, your rear window defroster is a decent electrical load. But it sounds like your main problem is not dependent on other loads, just engine speed.
BustedVibe
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Re: Some electrical system annoyances (Headlamps, Blower, etc)

Post by BustedVibe »

Still seems weird, I did find the sheet and at 750rpm idle the alternator should be delivering 136.7A (Peak 186.4A) which is more than enough to run what's in the car. I'll see if my mechanic will let me borrow his clamp meter.

Other than that the notes said "adjust belt 1/2" - 3/4" shorter for new o/d pulley" So hoping it's a belt issue or w/e. Although it seems like it's always been pretty tight. I know he ordered a shorter belt as I was present and helped with the alternator install / big 3 upgrade. So hoping it's a belt issue or w/e. :?
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BustedVibe
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Re: Some electrical system annoyances (Headlamps, Blower, etc)

Post by BustedVibe »

Well I've been to the mechanic. Guess I'm kind of boned, lol

he ran a charging test and that was Ok, then he put the clamp meter on, had a little knob he could dial in for increasing load.

The most we were able to get was a bout 95A peak in the 2500 - 3000 RPM range So not too happy about that.. at idle I believe it was putting out around 18 amps or something with the engine running, radio on and blow fan on low. So I have to wonder about the whole lights dimming thing with regards to that.

Maybe I got a dud that crapped the bed early, maybe its something else I'm not accounting for. Guessing the warranty period on this thing is up anyway, so might have to just write it off as an unwise investment. I put out an email to the guy who built it to see if he has anything to say on the matter.
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doubl3d
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Re: Some electrical system annoyances (Headlamps, Blower, etc)

Post by doubl3d »

Any updates? Is it okay already?
Failure was startling, really. So startling that I hardly noticed it at all
BustedVibe
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Re: Some electrical system annoyances (Headlamps, Blower, etc)

Post by BustedVibe »

doubl3d wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:57 am Any updates? Is it okay already?

I'm a very bad procrastinator unfortunately. Doubly so when I think it will take a lot of money to fix something (either in labor or parts or both). Being not so mechanically-inclined I have plans to have my mechanic swap back my factory alternator hopefully within the next month or so, so I can see about shipping it back to the guy who built it and have him test / do any repairs that might be needed.

i suspect the headlight dimming and blower fan speed issues may resolve when the factory Alternator goes back in.
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