Won't crank, probably starter?

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Renthorin
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:33 am

Won't crank, probably starter?

Post by Renthorin »

Started at work on Friday... drove home.
Parked and 15 minutes later decided to move to a different part in the driveway.
Cranked but wound down quickly, as if dying/dead battery. Thought that was odd so I cranked again. Nada. Didn't even crank.

Thought that was odd. Checked the battery and the idiot light is green. Put a battery load tester on it and it said "fair", 12.3 volts or so.
Thought it might be the cables. Tried to tighten the negative and it broke off. Ok, that's fun.

New negative cable arrived today and is installed. Won't crank at all. Lights, blower, all run strong.
Connected jumper to another running vehicle...won't crank.
Connected jumper from negative post to frame, won't crank.

MAIN fuse (30amp) is fine. Switched with a different 30amp fuse and it won't crank.

Question - how can I test the starter? Where is the starter solenoid? I hear a click in the glove box area. Don't judge me but on day one I disabled the clutch safety switch by jumpering across the contacts and that's still in place so I don't think it's that.

Any help would make me smile.

Will
Caretaker

Re: Won't crank, probably starter?

Post by Caretaker »

My starter died after driving 25 miles to a Costco to gas up. The moment I pulled up to the pump, the car died. Could not get it started without the help of a jump. However, the jump would only last for a few miles, then it would die again. I then got to a mechanic/tire shop where they tested everything after the engine had cooled down and everything tested fine. The next day, with the engine cold, I drove the car home the 25 miles without a problem. Something about the alternator pooping out after the car was fully hot; perhaps the wires in the alternator overheat when hot. In the morning, when the engine was cold, the car started fine, so I drove it to my mechanic and insisted on a new alternator. If this sounds similar to your situation, consider the alternator.
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vibrologist
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Re: Won't crank, probably starter?

Post by vibrologist »

This is what jolt told me to do I my case:
[quote] I would check for voltage at the starter solenoid. First check that the supply cable has voltage at the starter stud into the solenoid, then check for a voltage signal at the solenoid from the ignition switch. You will have to get someone to turn the key to the start position as you measure the voltage signal at the solenoid. Next, check for voltage out from the solenoid to the starter. If you have voltage (signal) from the ignition switch but do not have voltage out of the solenoid to the starter, you have a bad solenoid. If you do not have a signal (voltage) from the key switch when in the start position, you will have to back track from that point at the starter to the key switch to find the problem. Starters draw more current when hot so the problem has better odds of being the solenoid and/or starter.

Ground your meter to the engine block and not to the battery when checking your voltages at the starter solenoid. If the voltage reading at the battery supply cable on the solenoid does not match the voltage across the battery terminals, then you have a bad ground or cables.
[quote]

You can also tap the solenoid with a hammer or a hammer and chissel. I used the chissel upside down to prevent damaging the solenoid housing. According to jolt this is why it works (sometimes): "Most of the time if tapping on the starter gets it working, it is that the brushes are bad in the starter motor. The bushes wear out and do not make good contact with the armature so the motor does not run. By tapping on the motor, or in this case the solenoid on the starter motor, you cause the bushes to move inside the motor and make contact on the armature again. The motor will now run and work for awhile. This works for a few times but at some point will fail completely."



by the way the solenoid is attached to the starter. What you were looking for is the relay. I could not find my relay either. The fuse block under the hood has 2 grey relays and I swapped them out. But again I don't know if one of them was for the starter.
Last edited by vibrologist on Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vibrologist
'05 Vibe

"It is important to know the difference between 'accurate' and 'precise' even if you are neither!"

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jolt
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Re: Won't crank, probably starter?

Post by jolt »

Here is the info about the starter relay location: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=46084&p=518975#p518975
andrewclaus
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Re: Won't crank, probably starter?

Post by andrewclaus »

How old is the battery? What kind of load tester did you use? How many Amps were on it when you read 12.3 V?

It sounds to me like a badly failed battery. Failure to jump start is a symptom of that.
Renthorin
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Re: Won't crank, probably starter?

Post by Renthorin »

Going from memory (I'm at work) the batter was 12.4 volts at the battery. I turned on the headlights, dash vents fan set to high, dropped .1 volts. Turned the key to 'start' and it dropped about 5 volts to 11.8 or so.

My load tester is one of these: http://a.co/d/jd5ZL98

I don't even get the low-battery clicking associated with a dying battery. It went from crank one time to nothing the next. My battery charger read the battery as good health and charged.

I'm going to try the suggestion below that was quoted from Jolt. My question is, how to I check voltage 'signal'? I understand how to test the lead power coming to the starter.
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vibrologist
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Re: Won't crank, probably starter?

Post by vibrologist »

how to I check voltage 'signal'?
At the solenoid you have the big lead from the battery coming in. Just below that is the small lead from that brings the signal. Take that one off. You have to push in the clip from below to get it off. Attach your positive probe to the clip and the negative to the engine block. Have a helper turn the key to the start position.

but: you say when you start the voltage drops. It would not drop if there were no signal.
Vibrologist
'05 Vibe

"It is important to know the difference between 'accurate' and 'precise' even if you are neither!"

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andrewclaus
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Re: Won't crank, probably starter?

Post by andrewclaus »

That's a decent tester and it sounds like the battery is good.

Is it clear from the above that the solenoid is attached to the starter motor? The relay is in the junction block under the hood.
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joatmon
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Re: Won't crank, probably starter?

Post by joatmon »

Its also a good idea to check and clean both battery terminals. Corrosion build up can cause low current things to work fine but prevent the high current starter from getting enough juice.
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vibrologist
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Re: Won't crank, probably starter?

Post by vibrologist »

The relay is in the junction block under the hood.
No. The relay is on the upper side of the fuse panel inside the car. You get to it by pulling out the round vent to the left of the steering wheel.
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'05 Vibe

"It is important to know the difference between 'accurate' and 'precise' even if you are neither!"

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hogdoctor
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Re: Won't crank, probably starter?

Post by hogdoctor »

If the battery were the problem, the voltage would drop much more dramatically. You are seeing that half volt drop in battery voltage due to the current draw of the solenoid, so I expect the relay and wiring to signal the solenoid is good. If it didn't drop that half volt, I would be going after the relay.
So here's the deal with solenoids. There are -two- solenoid coils. The relay sends power to both coils on that same single wire connection.
The "pull in" coil is a stronger coil, draws more current and is grounded through the starter motor hot terminal. When you first hit the key, this is the coil that engages the starter drive clutch into the flywheel and closes the connection to send battery power to the electric motor. As soon as this happens, both sides of the pull in coil have equal voltage, so that coil cuts out. This is where the second coil comes into play, called the "hold in " coil. The hold in coil is grounded to the chassis ground, and maintains the clutch position and power to the motor.

What I expect you're experiencing, is what takes most of these starters out, is a worn short motor brush making a crappy connection to the armature. When that happens, the pull in coil loses it's ground path and won't energize properly. The hold in coil still energizes, but is too weak to pull in the solenoid plunger on it's own. A firm tap on the drive motor can dislodge a sticky brush and restore operation temporarily.
You can at this point take off the brush pack, clean and inspect, maybe it's just gunked up. A replacement motor end cover with brushes can be had for about $30. There's some good videos out there showing starter motor teardown and inspection, it's a fairly simple process.

If the firm tap doesn't fix the problem, you could have an open winding in the pull in coil itself, or in the starter motor. If the hold in coil were to have an open winding, the starter would "jackhammer" in and out of the flywheel. Rare but possible.

Your brush pack design may vary, the video shows the conventional radial type brush, but I've seen axial brushes as well.
https://youtu.be/5Z--ytG70Q0


Patrick (because I have more time than money, and not much of either)
Renthorin
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:33 am

Re: Won't crank, probably starter?

Post by Renthorin »

So the Vibe is up and running again. Here's what I did:

Tested the power at the solenoid's positive bolt - 12.2
Tested the signal wire at the solenoid - 12.2

Decided to take off the starter and stare at it. I removed the right-side bolt. Came out easily after the initial breaking loose.
Removed the left-side bolt. Took forever as it was fighting the entire time, even after penetrating oil.
Finally got them out and removed the starter....

The braided copper wire disintegrated in my hand. New starter installed and the car starts better than it has in years.

Thanks all : - )
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Jbenrod
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Re: Won't crank, probably starter?

Post by Jbenrod »

Thanks for closing out the thread with your solution. I've never seen or heard of that wire disintegrating like that.

I would be interested in hearing how many miles were on that original starter.
2005 Base - 220k
Renthorin
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:33 am

Re: Won't crank, probably starter?

Post by Renthorin »

It was the original starter. 2008 model. I have 155k or so miles on it. To be fair, I live in Michigan (road salt) and on a dirt road so the wire has been exposed to a lot of 'stuff' over it's life.

I did use penetrating oil on the bolt that removes from the driver's side and I wonder if that may have also contributed to the wire disintegrating in my fingers?
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