clicking sound from engine bay when idling

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ihaveavibe
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:48 pm

clicking sound from engine bay when idling

Post by ihaveavibe »

Hi all,

Some of you may have seen my other posts about my 2003 base Vibe -- I've been trying to identify the cause of bad gas mileage (19.5mpg mixed), oil sprayed under the engine cover, etc. One other issue I have is a lot of vibration when the car is idling around 600-700 rpm. In addition, today I noticed that a fast clicking sounds starts after a while idling, usually after I turn the steering wheel. The rpms go up, then back down and there is clicking. I thought it may be the PCV valve rattling, but that's pure conjecture. I cannot localize it. Since it starts up after moving the steering wheel, maybe it has to do with the vacuum system... Any ideas? I could post a video file but don't seem to be able to upload it.

thanks
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vibrologist
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Re: clicking sound from engine bay when idling

Post by vibrologist »

I am not totally sure what the normal idle speed is but 600 to 700 seems low to me even if yours is a manual, definitely low if it is an automatic. There might be some pinging going on. I would bump it up to 850 or so. Your '03 TB is cable operated. There should be an idle speed screw.

Re fuel economy: could you re-cap what you have done to address this?
Vibrologist
'05 Vibe

"It is important to know the difference between 'accurate' and 'precise' even if you are neither!"

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=43476
andrewclaus
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Re: clicking sound from engine bay when idling

Post by andrewclaus »

A cheap mechanic's stethoscope can help locate the noise. Even a length of heater hose might work.
ihaveavibe
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Re: clicking sound from engine bay when idling

Post by ihaveavibe »

I'll try to locate a hose or get a stethoscope. Meantime, this is what it sounds like on video: https://photos.app.goo.gl/c3rXLqK1dBMpoVgq5

Regarding the idle, I have an automatic, and it seemed that 650-700 rpm is normal, what it's always been. Here's an early discussion where the last post seems to confirm these numbers: viewtopic.php?t=81

( As for the fuel economy: this is still work in progress. I've mostly looked at brake drag (which I'm pretty sure I had -- I was getting 170 miles per tank and now 200-ish). I've checked tire pressure, run fuel injector cleaner through twice, put in new spark plugs, new air filter, new PCV, cleaned MAF. I was about to clean TB when I noticed the clicking. Anyway, TB cleaning seems slightly more involved off the car with coolant dripping etc, so I may try first while it's still on.
I had on the list for the future checking for intake manifold gasket leaks, IACV cleaning (though I doubt that has much effect).
I'm not sure about valve clearance adjustment, whether that would that have an effect but I know it's never been done, though the manual says every 48mo. Car has only 88.8k miles.
I was initially worried the thermostat wasn't good, maybe stuck open because the temp never came above the top wavy line on the gauge, but that seems normal...
My biggest worry is my suspicion that the transmission might be slipping - I'm not experienced in checking this. It's not hunting for gears, but I feel sometimes the revs go up without power transfer - but this may be just a feeling from an under powered car(?). I think lockup clutch works. I made some numbers on the rpms I should be seeing based on final drive ratio, transmission ratio, and approx tire revs per mile and it seems ok (about 3.2k rpm at 80mph). )
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vibrologist
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Re: clicking sound from engine bay when idling

Post by vibrologist »

This sounds like a bit of valve ticking. I don't think I would worry about it. I think you have to take the camshaft off in order to adjust the valve lash. So it is a major job. I am sure my car had it never done and it is at 134000 miles or so.

So far you have done a nice job of a tune up. I assume you used NGK iridium plugs?
Checking for brake drag was a good idea too. Many forget about that possibility.

Until you locate a hose you may use a long screw driver putting your ear at the handle end and the blade on an object. Without experience this form of diagnostics can be a bit confusing or worrying because you will hear stuff you never heard before. It 's hard to tell if something is normal or not if you hear it the first time.

Miles per tank is not a good way of gauging fuel consumption. But you did provide a mpg number in your first post.

It is important to consider your driving conditions and driving style and any extra load, like people and cargo. In cold weather and short distances your fuel mileage may already be normal or close to it. I know any acceleration that revs to 4000+ is sucking the fuel out of my tank.
Vibrologist
'05 Vibe

"It is important to know the difference between 'accurate' and 'precise' even if you are neither!"

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=43476
hogdoctor
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Re: clicking sound from engine bay when idling

Post by hogdoctor »

sounds a lot like typical injector clacking and possibly the evap solenoids doing their normal thing. I concur with the stethescope idea, see if you can narrow it down. Ideally, the 02 sensor feedback loop is responsible for your fuel mixture control, if it's economy is crap because it's running rich, it could be that it's stuck in open loop or the 02 sensor is reading improperly, or an exhaust leak is contaminating the exhaust around the 02 sensor and tricking it into pushing the trim to max enrichment. FWIW, my 04 was only getting 19mpg with a bad 02 sensor and blown exhaust donught gasket.
Use Torque (tm) to confirmed closed loop and Monitor the 02 sensor activity and fuel trim activity and see what it's doing. I'll post an example of what's considered normal, both upstream and downstream of the cat. https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=5CBC5462
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joatmon
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Re: clicking sound from engine bay when idling

Post by joatmon »

It is possible that it is the normal VSV ticking, been asked about here a bunch.

Still, impossible to say definitively from this side of the internet
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ihaveavibe
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Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:48 pm

Re: clicking sound from engine bay when idling

Post by ihaveavibe »

Thanks for the suggestions. Definitely gives me some things to try out.

Hogdoctor, how were you able to locate the leak in the exhaust?

Also, yes, I did use iridium NGK plugs, and got the mpg from actual miles and actual gallons. (Miles/tank is still useful now that I have range anxiety, especially when the annoying light comes on :)
Mark
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Location: Cheyenne, WY

Re: clicking sound from engine bay when idling

Post by Mark »

Had the same sort of thing in my 04, the #3 plug had worked itself loose somehow. Poor performance, rough idle, gas blowing by the loose threads. I know I torqued them when I put them in a couple years before, so not sure what might have caused it. I replaced all four and torqued them and no more issues. Now I check and re-torque every now and then.

I found it after my daughter told me about a loud clicking noise in the engine.
'08 Base Stealth, '05 Base Satellite
ihaveavibe
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:48 pm

Re: clicking sound from engine bay when idling

Post by ihaveavibe »

Double checking the spark plugs being torqued down makes sense.. will do that.

I took some PCM readings with Torque and it seems the second/downstream O2 sensor is reading high when ilding, around 0.75-0.8V. I also have high-ish short term (4-7%) and long term fuel trim (4%). Not sure how to interpret this downstream 02 reading.

When revved to about 3.3k rpm, the second O2 voltage does come down to 0.1, upstream 02 is still changing a lot, the short term trim changes around between what looks like -5 % and +1 %, long term trim is still 4%.

I'd attach some screenshots but doesn't seem possible any more.
hogdoctor
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Re: clicking sound from engine bay when idling

Post by hogdoctor »

My exhaust leak was the exhaust manifold outlet donut gasket. As for the cat outlet sensor, I don't think the actual voltage is important, as long as it's not jumping around like the inlet sensor is, then the cat is doing something productive.
ihaveavibe
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:48 pm

Re: clicking sound from engine bay when idling

Post by ihaveavibe »

Ok, I followed up on a few items, some still pending.

First the spark plugs. Yes, anything I touched in the past is suspect! :) However, I found nothng wrong, torqued to spec (18 ft lb), and noted they all tended be in pretty clean environments. See photo.
spark plug clean.JPG
spark plug clean.JPG (56.31 KiB) Viewed 2493 times
However, I did note they had some oil seeping where I think the valve cover gasket is. Am I right? Would this warrant a change of gasket? I think you can see this in the photo below:
spark plug oil.JPG
spark plug oil.JPG (33.69 KiB) Viewed 2493 times
I checked the PCV valve since I replaced that, and though I didn't take it out, there is no "sludge" or residue in the hose at either end (referring to a Youtube Video by Fred Lyst, if I'm not mistaken). I could have taken it out but I believe you need to treat the threads with locking compound which I didn't have on hand, so I didn't.


Now, the 02 sensors. There are apparently several ways to log this behaviour with Torque. One is real-time data, then there is a Test mode for 02 sensors, there is a graphing feature, logging feature, and a plugin called realtime charts or something similar. I don't know how accurate these are, seems the highest resolution is 100ms. I think the O2 sensor works but may be "lazy" or "slow" but I don't think any of these are definitive.

Here are two plots. First is from the realtime data
O2 realtime.JPG
O2 realtime.JPG (41.67 KiB) Viewed 2493 times
this one is from the 02 test:
O2 test.JPG
O2 test.JPG (32.39 KiB) Viewed 2493 times
Does it look like the voltage doesn't go high enough?
Might this be a setup issue with Torque, a question of scaling?
Is it perhaps not fast enough?

I could try to change the O2 sensor, but I don't want to randomly start replacing things.

Is there a better app made specifically for Toyotas? (I'm sure there is, just not sure which). I'd like to be able to also get the status of other things like any transmission issues.

Finally, not sure I mentioned it, but there is no check engine or any trouble codes at all. Yet at my last fill up I recorded 17.1 mpg and I still hear the noise that started this thread (now thinking it might be the VSV, coming probably from near the air filter box).

Thanks for any further tips, info, or comments!
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