Brake line fitting

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ihaveavibe
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:48 pm

Brake line fitting

Post by ihaveavibe »

I've been noticing a bit of sluggishness and bad fuel consumption (again) so I started suspecting brake drag. I'm not that good with diagnosing this but i tried to spin each wheel by hand individually and found the front left was somewhat difficult. I decided to change the break fluid, but then thought that might not really have anything to do with it, so I changed the caliper and attempted to change the break hose. I had already done the passenger side in the spring (seized caliper) and figured I should have done both.

However, when it came to changing the brake hose, I simply couldn't thread the fitting into the new one. I got the replacement from Advance (Wearever, supposedly exact fit), so I went out and got another one from Autozone (Duralast, also supposedly exact fit). I had the same threading problem. I figured it wasn't me being clumsy because In the meantime I put the old one back on, twice.

So the question is, is my old fitting and hose cross threaded? I believe this caliper and hose was already replaced by a shop about 6 years ago, so it's not factory original.

How can I fix this? I'm first going to see if the problem of fuel consumption and sluggishness goes away, but it bothers me that the fitting might be bad. I could test if the new hose is M10x1.0 (is that the right thread?). But in the end if it's really the fitting I think the easiest would be to get a Matrix hydraulic brake line (front #5). Is there a howto for replacing the hard line? Any gotchas? How do you get it through the wheel well? How do you keep all the fluid from draining out?

Thanks for any advice on any of this.
ihaveavibe
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:48 pm

Re: Brake line fitting

Post by ihaveavibe »

Ok, no responses yet but in the meantime fuel consumption is the same as before, and I would really like to change the brake hose. I ordered the front brake line #5 and the fitting threads into the new hose just fine.

So how do I remove and replace this hard brake line? It mates with an L type connection that's bolted to the brake booster. The problem is space is tight and even though I can get a 10mm flare nut wrench on the fitting going into the "L", I doubt I can rotate it 60 degrees.. looks like maybe there is space for 45. Should I cut down my 10/12 mm wrench to make it shorter, use a crawfoot wrench somehow with an extention? Do the flex head ones work better for access? Any help would be appreciated. Most of the brake line work on the matrix manual involves a special service tool, which looks like a crawfoot wrench to me, but what do I know.

Thanks
ehoff121
Posts: 756
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:19 am
Location: Conn.

Re: Brake line fitting

Post by ehoff121 »

One reason for not getting responses from our regular mechanics might be this:
ihaveavibe wrote:I believe this caliper and hose was already replaced by a shop about 6 years ago, so it's not factory original.
Brake hoses don't usually get changed when changing the caliper- my guess is the replacement caliper was not the same as OEM and they had to change the brake line to make it work. Do the calipers look the same on the front wheels? If you change the brake line to OEM, you'd likely have to change the caliper back to OEM, too. If it's not seized and it's working properly, then you shouldn't need to do this.

Typical symptoms of a seized caliper are a much hotter than normal rotor after braking and/or abnormal pad wear (inner thinner than the outer). When it's dragging, you might feel a vibration in the steering wheel at highway speeds. Did you experience any of these? If you had the old caliper off, was it easy to compress the piston with a c-clamp? You would know pretty quick if it really was seized...

There are many different issues that can cause poor fuel consumption, but you didn't mention them in your post: dirty air filter, clogged fuel injectors, dirty throttle body, cold weather, ethanol content in gas, driving habits, low tire pressure.
2005 Pontiac Vibe AWD - Platinum
ihaveavibe
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:48 pm

Re: Brake line fitting

Post by ihaveavibe »

ehoff121: Thanks for your thoughts.

At this point the concerns you mention are not really the issue. The issue now is simply: how to change the hard brake line #5?

But for completeness:

The reason the hose was changed is because they collapse on the inside. The replacement hoses are also exact fits, same fitting type and size as the original so that they go on the existing hard brake line. Since mine must have been done in a clumsy way and the fitting was cross-threaded, I cannot screw on a brand new hose. The replacement caliper may not have been OEM but if not, it must be a similar aftermarket one, basically the same as the reconditioned ones you can get at Advance with a core charge. But the issue is with the brake line fitting, not the caliper.

Therefore, as I see it, my options are to
a) cut a new thread on the fitting with a dye, but that might be hard while the fluid is coming out and not being able to get close enough with the wheel well being there

b) cut off the end of the hard line, put on a new fitting and re-flare the line, which I have no experience doing and the fluid will be seeping out, or

c) buy a new hard line that is pre-formed with fittings, which is what I did. The only question is how to get the old one off and the new one on, given that that the space is tight. The typical flare nut wrench you get has a long handle that probably won't allow it to undo the fitting near the brake booster.

So my question is how best to replace the brake line #5 (this is on the diagrams on toyota parts sites). In fact, even if my diagnosis of the brake drag is wrong, this would still be my question, since I've determined that the fitting attaching to the hose is cross threaded. The only reason i mentioned the hose wasn't factory original, is that you would not expect a cross-threaded situation in a factory original fitting and hose.

(But to discuss the other possibilities: the caliper was not seized, that's an easy diagnosis. The issue is a bit of drag. As I mentioned I rotated all four wheels off the ground by hand, and this one was markedly difficult. The original reason why the indy shop replaced the hose an caliper was almost identical - poor gas economy, poor acceleration. The weather and ethanol content are pretty much the same before worse fuel consumption. Tire pressure is 32 psi as recommended, driving habits have not changed. Air filter should not be due yet and I don't know if the throttle body is dirty or the fuel injectors clogged, but those things wouldn't dramatically change in a few months. I ran fuel injector cleaner through the system, but I'll get to those other things after I change the brake line and hose. Another possible cause I read was any air left in the brake line or the fluid being old, as in both cases heat would cause more pressure in the system and effectively engage the brakes while under load/hot. But as I changed the fluid and bled the lines, this shouldn't be it.)
ehoff121
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Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:19 am
Location: Conn.

Re: Brake line fitting

Post by ehoff121 »

ihaveavibe wrote:Tire pressure is 32 psi as recommended
On my AWD, the front and rear pressure are different: 35 front, 32 rear. You might want to check the sticker. :D
2005 Pontiac Vibe AWD - Platinum
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joatmon
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Location: SMC MD

Re: Brake line fitting

Post by joatmon »

I had a hard time identifying "part 5" but looked at my 03's engine bay and I can see how the hard line running from the brake booster to the front drivers side caliper would be a challenge to get a tool on at the booster end.

My 03 has mechanical throttle and cruise control. If I had to access that brake line connector, I'd probably unbolt the cruise mechanism and see if moving that out of the way would give me better tool angle swing.

I didn't look in your past posts to see what year or model you had, or if you have cruise. If not, maybe there's some unrelated component in the area on yours you can unhook and reposition to get better access.

I often have a hard time getting brake line fittings to not cross thread, especially with hard lines, and throw in either bad access or visibility, doubly so.

I recently had to replace a hard power steering line in a Tacoma, like your challenge, it's one of those things they obviously put into the chassis before installing the powertrain and other components, so good luck.

If you get the brake line replaced, let us know what you had to do.
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ihaveavibe
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Re: Brake line fitting

Post by ihaveavibe »

ehoff121 wrote:
ihaveavibe wrote:Tire pressure is 32 psi as recommended
On my AWD, the front and rear pressure are different: 35 front, 32 rear. You might want to check the sticker. :D
Yup, checked sticker in the glove box, recommended on the base 03 FWD is 32 psi all around.
ihaveavibe
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:48 pm

Re: Brake line fitting

Post by ihaveavibe »

joatmon wrote:I had a hard time identifying "part 5" but looked at my 03's engine bay and I can see how the hard line running from the brake booster to the front drivers side caliper would be a challenge to get a tool on at the booster end.

My 03 has mechanical throttle and cruise control. If I had to access that brake line connector, I'd probably unbolt the cruise mechanism and see if moving that out of the way would give me better tool angle swing.
I'll try to find the toyota parts diagram for the Matrix again and link it or copy it, but yeah, line #5 is what connects driver's side brake hose to the rest of the hyrdaulic system.

Anwyay, thanks for the tip! I also have an '03 Vibe and just today a mechanic I managed to corner and show my issue to also suggested moving the cruise control mechanism out of the way. Great minds think alike! I'll look into unbolting that next and will report back on it.
ihaveavibe
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:48 pm

Re: Brake line fitting

Post by ihaveavibe »

Ok, this past weekend I replaced the hard brake line.

I have an 03 base Vibe with ABS (That may have been a standard feature but I see places in service manual where they have non-ABS diagrams).

I ordered the 03 Matrix part # 47315-02180 which is "Tube, Front Brake, No. 5". (About $9 plus shipping). I cannot find the diagram on the web that allowed me to figure out which tube I needed, but it was similar to the one below. Tube #5 is not labeled, it attaches to what is labeled with 8 in a circle. (source: parts.toyota.com)
A1_473919A_47315.png
A1_473919A_47315.png (9.83 KiB) Viewed 3070 times
The actual replacement was not too difficult, just messy. As suggested, I got the cruise control mechanism out of the way. I did not undo the cables, I just removed the electrical connector, unclipped the vacuum tube on top, and undid the two bolts securing the base to the mount on the car. These bolts were fairly tight and rusted and I couldn't really get at them with things being in the way. I ended up using some WD40, an extension with a universal joint and a 12mm socket. Once I got the bolts off, I had to lift up and jiggle the assembly a bit to free the tab on the base that fits into the mount. There is a wire standoff that holds the throttle cable looping in on the bottom, which I unclipped, and rested the whole thing to the side on top of the engine cover.

Now I had access to the fitting I needed to undo. I put a rag underneath to catch drips. They say to leave the brake fluid reservoir cap on to provide some vacuum so the fluid doesn't come out, but it started dripping nonetheless as soon as I unscrewed a few turns. It's a bit of a pain, can't easily turn it with finger strength but i finally got the fitting off and had my assistant (wife) plug the hole with her gloved finger while I worked on the rest.

I undid the brake hose at the hard line in the wheel well and pushed the rubber plug through towards the engine bay to free the old part. Putting the new part on was harder than taking the old one off, had a hard time getting the new fitting properly threaded on with time pressure while the fluid was coming out. Eventually I managed. (i attached the new hose first but I had to undo that because there was not enough freedom of movement in the hard line to align the fitting). Anyway, once the hard line fitting was threaded on in the engine bay, I put the new hose on, new copper washers on the banjo bolt, bled the brake line, topped up the fluid, etc. Putting the cruise control back was exactly the reverse of taking it off and easy. The most annoying thing in all of this was the leaking brake fluid - I think I caught most with the rag, but I wiped down the surfaces as best I could with a paper towel and then decided to pour some water over everything anyway, catching it in a drain pan. (For completeness, pushing the new rubber plug that is on the hard line into place was also annoying. I had to both push from the engine bay with one hand and pull gently with pliers from the wheel well with the other hand, basically hugging the fender and barely seeing what I was doing.)

That's it. I don't know if this will solve my original issue, I'll be testing it, but at least I now have a new brake hose and a hard line with good threads on the fittings.
ihaveavibe
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:48 pm

Re: Brake line fitting

Post by ihaveavibe »

This might deserve a separate post, but since it was part of the above repair:

Does the thickness of the copper washers on the banjo bolt matter?
Does over tightening the bleed screw cause fluid seepage?

I ask these questions because I've been monitoring the brake hose and I feel like there is seepage of break fluid at the back of the caliper. It seems to extend from the base of the bleed screw. When I first saw this, I torqued down both that and the banjo bolt some more, but I still see it. I used up the new copper washers for the banjo bolt that came with the brake hose when I initially tried installing it (but failed for the reason that started this thread). For the actual installation I found replacement washers that were not quite as thick (about 1mm vs about 1.5 mm). If this is indeed a problem, where would one get the exact washers required? Basically I'm looking for reasons there might be fluid seeping.

Thanks
zbyers
Posts: 1767
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:12 pm
Location: Sheffield, Pennsylvania

Re: Brake line fitting

Post by zbyers »

ihaveavibe wrote:This might deserve a separate post, but since it was part of the above repair:

Does the thickness of the copper washers on the banjo bolt matter?
Does over tightening the bleed screw cause fluid seepage?
thickness of the copper washer shouldn't matter. the biggest concern is making sure it is clean and flat. you can (but shouldn't because they come with new calipers/hoses) reuse them by sanding them down nice and smooth again.

not sure about overtightening the bleed screw..I'd assume if you overtighten it, you could crack the screw or threads causing it to seep some fluid out.
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