Please help with A/C problem

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ihaveavibe
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:48 pm

Please help with A/C problem

Post by ihaveavibe »

I could use some help diagnosing my A/C.

I have a 2003 base Vibe. For some time the A/C was blowing poorly chilled air, so last year I added some refrigerant from a can of AC pro. This year the A/C failed and I noticed the clutch wasn't engaging. I replaced the clutch with a brand new one (using DIY instructions from genVibe, thank you), but the A/C was still blowing warm air. The clutch engages, bud I did hear some hissing from the passenger side in the dash. I added some more AC pro. Still blowing warm air. The low side hose feels cool but not cold.

After the above I bought a gauge set and I took a pressure reading in about 78-80F weather: static pressure when compressor is off was 46 psi high and low side. When the compressor was on, it was 30 psi low and 65 psi high side. The high side seems ridiculously low, but the low seems in range (i'm getting 21.75 psi to 36.3 psi as normal from the Trix service manual on madstyle1972, given as 0.15 to 0.25 MPa, but maybe someone can confirm this is valid).

My initial thought is that the compressor has failed but someone pointed out that if it spins easily by hand, it's probably okay.

Is the refrigerant still too low?

Could it be the expansion valve?

I was thinking of replacing the compressor but that would also require replacing the receiver/dryer, if I'm not mistaken and flushing components (which I'm not sure how to do). If it's the expansion valve, would that require taking apart the dash?

I would appreciate any suggestions!
Thanks
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MacGyver
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Re: Please help with A/C problem

Post by MacGyver »

Welcome to GenVibe! You need to find the refrigerant leak and fix it first. https://youtu.be/pCv7rCdcXsc
2009 Vibe Base
ihaveavibe
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:48 pm

Re: Please help with A/C problem

Post by ihaveavibe »

Ok, I've ordered the R134+ with dye and am waiting for it to be delivered. It will take a whle to report back.

I also did some looking and found that some folks think 35psi low side is normal (I wrote 30psi above, but it might have been 36 -- have to measure again) viewtopic.php?t=34039

BTW, can someone elucidate what someone in the linked post was saying about starting the ac when the engine is cold to ensure that some valve in the heater core is not stuck open?

Thanks!
ihaveavibe
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:48 pm

Re: Please help with A/C problem

Post by ihaveavibe »

Ok, at the risk of carrying on a monologue, I'll continue. :)

The refrigerant with dye is taking even longer to get -- Amazon now says end of next week (if I were to order today, then 1-2 months). I've been looking at alternatives, like a dye injector kit ($60) or an FJC 2732 hand turn dye injector (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001T9AREK). Anyone have any opinion on this, or what to get? Comments would be very much appreciated.

In any case, I checked the pressure again yesterday. Down to 25 psi with A/C off in about 85F weather, clearly confirming that there is a leak. Clutch wasn't even engaging. I went back to the A/C pro bottle and added about 11 oz and now it's blowing cold air. 85F displayed on the dash for outside, about 50F center vent (meat thermometer, unsure of calibration), 200 psi high side and 34 psi low side. Not sure if these numbers are normal, but one thing is clear, that the compressor is working. But still need to find leak.

Questions:
- Which dye injector or kit to get (see above)
- Is the low side pressure expected to drop as the system is operating and cooling (I noticed about 3 psi drop)? Or is that a leak-related effect?
- With a normally functioning A/C can you hear a hiss or "slurping" sound from inside the dash (with radio off, fan on low)? I hear this now, haven't noticed it before, wondering if it's ok. Perhaps it's the refrigerant moving through the expansion valve?

Thanks!
jayoldschool
Posts: 294
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:04 pm

Re: Please help with A/C problem

Post by jayoldschool »

You can get the dye at any parts store or even Wal Mart if you don't want to wait.
ihaveavibe
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:48 pm

Re: Please help with A/C problem

Post by ihaveavibe »

Yes, but how do I get the dye into the system?
I see low-side port injectors of various kinds (hand-turn, syringe, combo oil and dye injectors, and unspecified) and some videos on youtube about adding it to the refrigerant fill hose on the manifold gauge (my gauge for some reason doesn't have a purge valve, which is another problem).
jayoldschool
Posts: 294
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:04 pm

Re: Please help with A/C problem

Post by jayoldschool »

There are cans of 134a with dye already in it. Add with your fill hose.
ihaveavibe
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:48 pm

Re: Please help with A/C problem

Post by ihaveavibe »

Ok, I got a direct fill dye from Advance Auto Parts. Basically a pressurized can with a top that fits over the low-side port that injects (mostly?) just dye.

How long does it take for the dye to show up? Right now I'm not seeing much, except a tiny dot between the compressor and the clutch as in the photo below, circled red. Still waiting for it to get dark but this has me concerned it's the seal...
DyeTest.jpg
DyeTest.jpg (32 KiB) Viewed 3314 times
ihaveavibe
Posts: 96
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Re: Please help with A/C problem

Post by ihaveavibe »

Ok, I checked as thoroughly as I could and found a spot on the condenser that's glowing. A regular photo shows what seems to be a shadow but now I suspect is oil or something leaking through. Unfortunately photos are not from the same angle.
CondenserLeak.jpg
CondenserLeak.jpg (20.72 KiB) Viewed 3304 times
CondenserLeak2.jpg
CondenserLeak2.jpg (40.3 KiB) Viewed 3304 times
So I'm guessing I'll have to replace the condenser. And from what I read, also the receiver dryer. Should I try OEM or are aftermarket parts fine? Does the system have to be flushed and does oil need to be added? How much? I'll look for some DIYs but any info or help is appreciated!
tpollauf
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Re: Please help with A/C problem

Post by tpollauf »

Nice research. All refrigerants carry oil throughout the system from the compressor (open ... belt drive, semi-hermetic, and hermetic) so when there is a leak of any kind, oil residue is usually present. Looks like you need the condenser for sure. Not sure if you'll need to replace receiver also unless it is an integral part of the assemble.
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2009 Vibe GT (manual), 2009 G8Gt, 2009 Vibe GT (auto)
2014 Silverado, 2004 Vibe GT

"everything is modifiable"
ihaveavibe
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:48 pm

Re: Please help with A/C problem

Post by ihaveavibe »

Yeah, I read that you have to replace receiver/dryer if you open the AC system. I'm not sure if a flush is needed.

Does anyone have a DIY for condenser replacement? Still searching... read the Haynes book section, they seem to imply that the radiator has to come out, coolant drained etc. However it's not even clear to me how to access the front of the condenser assembly to take of the bolts that connect the refrigerant lines. Does the grille come off? The whole front bumper? [Also I don't think the original GM part is available. Anyone have an opinion on aftermarket ones?]
ihaveavibe
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:48 pm

Re: Please help with A/C problem

Post by ihaveavibe »

Hi. I still haven't moved forward, considering my options. Any help would be appreciated with

- Do I need to flush the rest of the system in this situation?

- Any DIY writeup on condenser change? How much oil (i was thinking 3 oz) and how to add?

- Any ideas on the relative merits of UAC, TYC, ACDelco, DENSO, CSF condensers?

Thanks!
ihaveavibe
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:48 pm

Re: Please help with A/C problem

Post by ihaveavibe »

Ok. So I thought I'd close the loop on this and post a followup.

I got no suggestions on the above questions, so I did not flush the system, I could not find a DIY on the condenser swap and I bought a DENSO condenser, for no particular reason other than that DENSO is a Toyota supplier and it was a lot cheaper than the AC Delco part at around $100. It took a few days to research/pick, about a week to ship, then I went on vacation, followed by continuous use of the car, so I finally had the opportunity to put it last weekend. Hence the month between posts! However, during this month pretty much all the A/C pro charge had leaked out so I didn't really need to evacuate the system.

The condenser came with the receiver/dryer, all ports nicely plugged and capped, so it should be okay. As I mentioned I had no DIY for the swap procedure and the Hayes book wanted one to drain and remove the radiator. After a fair amount of trying to access the bolts on the condenser and receiver/dryer, I realized I was going to have to take off the bumper cover.

The '03 Vibe had about 14 years of corrosion on threads of the bolts that hold the bumper cover at the top, right under the hood. Even with WD40, it took me hours to remove them. I pretty much stripped the philips screwdriver slot on both. I removed the rubber jacket from both with pliars. One bolt I got unscrewed far enough to fit pliars with the semicircular teeth (what's that called?) around the edges and was able to remove with two hands squeezing and gloves on. The other one had me stumped until I filed its edges enough to fit a hex socket on and that did the trick. Once I was done, before putting them back in, I re-tapped the holes and chased the threads on the bolt, and then I hack-sawed a slot on top for a flat screwdriver when the bolts ware partially back (I don't have a vise or a bench to mount one on!). I might wind up buying new ones but they're not cheap. Anyway, the rest of the bumper cover fasteners were relatively easy (3 clips on top, 2 on the bottom, 6 bolts on the bottom and unclipping the fog lights.)

I unscrewed the aluminum tubes to the condenser and covered the ends by taping some zip lock bags around them. I removed the radiator fan assembly (unplug the reservoir, unclip power, undo clips holding cable to assembly and lift out). I then unscrewed the radiator mounts, lifted it back and tilted it back. I unscrewed the condenser, and here I had to really push on the radiator to get it back. Probably should have removed the receiver dryer first. I had to take some mounting hardware off the old condenser and put it on the new one, as well as the electrical thingy that plugs into the top of the receiver dryer. I put the new condenser with receiver dryer attached back the same way I took the old one out, past the radiator and then mounted and bolted everything back together.

I got some PAG 46 double end-capped oil. I also got a new o-ring set. I put new o-rings (dipped them in the oil first) at the ends of the aluminum tubes that go into the condenser and receiver dryer, as well as for the electrical component that screws into the r/d from the top. Writing this now, I feel I could have changed a few more of them, including ones at the in and out ports of the compressor. I also changed the Schrader valve on the high side service port because it seemed to me that it was bubbling when I did the dye test. I got a $4 A/C pro kit with valves, valve tool and port caps, but in retrospect, probably should have gotten model specific valves. I also decided to put in 2 oz of PAG oil, one for the replaced condenser and one for the receiver dryer. I could have put this in the fill line of the manifold set but I decided to put the oil in the tube leading to the condenser, and the high and low ports (with valves out). I wasn't sure where was best, so I sort of distributed it. I used a 5ml syringe to add so it was a bit of a pain and took a while (60ml, 12 applications).

When it was all back together I attached an inexpensive single stage rotary vane vacuum pump (Kozyvacu from Amazon, about $55) and pulled what looked like about -27 psi. It seemed to drop to -25 or below, which had me worried about a leak, but then it could have been due to outgassing or water evaporating. So I pumped on it for an hour, and then observed that it was holding better (though not perfectly steady at -27). I then moved to filling the system, only to find that my cheap gauge set from amazon ($35) was not compatible with the can tap thread! So I had to order a part for $4 and wait another 4 days. Meantime the vacuum held but still dropped to about -23. I wasn't going to open it back up, so when the part came, I pumped on the vacuum another 15 minutes and moved to filling it up. I used two 12 oz cans (net weight 340g each, system max is 670g). I cracked the fill hose to purge the air. I used a digital kitchen scale but that was a disaster. With the can on the hose the readings were all over the place. I just assumed with cracking the hose and having some residual left in the can as well as the gauge hoses after filling, I would wind up losing 10g and so I just filled both cans into the system.

So that's it. It's blowing cold and I'm hoping the seals are good, that I have the right amount of oil in there (though i'm starting to think an extra ounce would have been good). I also hope there are no other issues with the electronics. I don't know how to test the thermistor that goes to the evap core, or where to even find its terminals. And I'm not sure about the gadget that screws into the top of the receiver/dryer. I think both these are meant to shut the system, and I haven't seen the clutch disengage yet when the A/C button is on.

(As an extra, while waiting for the tank adapter part I fixed the well known dash clicking sound by removing the blend door actuator and flipping the plastic gear 180 degrees, as I read somewhere on these forums. This was a very frustrating experience. The only way I could do it through the glove box opening was purely by feel -- fingers only and not seeing what I was doing.)
tpollauf
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Re: Please help with A/C problem

Post by tpollauf »

No a bad job you did there for not knowing much about refrigeration.
I work on large refrigeration systems (Centrifugal chillers, Walk-in coolers, screw compressors, scrolls and good ol recips!) and believe it or not RARELY work on any automotive A/C systems. All my cars have never needed A/C service at all. Yeah the cheapo equipment you got apparently did the job BUT you'd be limited to how many cars you could do before it becomes junk. Great job and write up.
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2009 Vibe GT (manual), 2009 G8Gt, 2009 Vibe GT (auto)
2014 Silverado, 2004 Vibe GT

"everything is modifiable"
ihaveavibe
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:48 pm

Re: Please help with A/C problem

Post by ihaveavibe »

Thanks! I got the least expensive tools I could find to get the job done. Cost was definitely a factor :). As mentioned at the top, this started with a failed clutch. Originally I ordered some cheap o-ring expanders that broke and just the clutch coil from eBay which was the wrong size. That's when I "upgraded" and bought a real tool and an original AC Delco clutch assembly.

Anyway, I knew fundamental gas physics, but not much about refrigeration systems. From the local library I checked out

"Automotive Heating and Air Conditioning" by Tom Birch, 5th ed., Pearson Automotive 2010
"Automotive Service, Inspection, Maintentance, Repair" by Time Gilles, 4th ed Delmar Cengage Learning 2012
I purchased the Matrix/Vibe Haynes Repair manual
I looked at the Matrix shop manual online (madstyle)

I wouldn't say any of these was super helpful, but I did gather some info from all of them. I also searched the web and youtube a lot, but some of the information was contradictory.

I spent about $490 total. Of this about $300 were parts:

Cost (USD) Item
131.44 clutch assembly
31.54 socket set
20.27 snap ring expander
18.73 clip set

78.35 Condenser
12.08 O-ring set
12.95 shipping

15.02 dye
14.07 PAG oil
14.95 cans of R134a
59.99 vacuum pump
12.53 dye cleaner
5.79 SAE-ACME adapter
6.99 can tap
4 shrader valves, valve tool, cap

6.99 UV flashlight
5.99 uv yellow glasses
35.99 manifold gauge set

487.67 total A/C fix with tools
301.59 parts

Some of this was excessive like the socket set (needed just one to remove accessory belt), clip set (came in handy for bumper cover and splash guards, came with tool), dye cleaner (haven't used yet). Dye can be had cheaper but came in a can that plugs right on the low-side port which was useful and can be used for multiple applications.

Comparing this to what a shop would charge, I definitely came out ahead (quote for condenser swap was $1k. not sure about clutch but I'm guessing $300-$500). Of course I spent way too much time :)
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