Rear Brake overheating many attempts to fix

[butternutaud]

I have a 2009 Vibe FWD with about 120K on it. My wife is the primary driver and is very gentle with the car. I've done several dozen brake jobs in my life but this one is throwing me a big curve. It might be something simple but I can't seem to fix it.

In the last 8 weeks or so I've changed the driver's side rear pads 3 times and they are shot again. Only a few thousand miles total. It is always the inner pad. I've changed the rotor, installed a rebuilt caliper. The new pads are lubed each time and checked for "float" within the bracket. The sliding pins are cleaned and lubricated. The emergency brake seems to be completely released. The line has been bled. Each time I've finished I've made sure that the brake worked properly while jacked off the garage floor, also checked the E-brake to make sure it worked and released. (had my wife exercise the brake while I checked).

One thing I haven't done is change the hose (perhaps it is somewhat collapsed internally and not allowing enough fluid to return?). I've also made sure the alignment pin on the pad is within the recess in the caliper piston face.

Pretty frustrated with it. Any suggestions would be appreciated!

[ehoff121]

Not claiming to be as experienced on brakes as you are, but you don't mention whether you touched the passenger side caliper/rotor/pads. Maybe some additional info would help the experts diagnose...

Was the entire axle (both rotors/pads) done at the same time or only the driver's side?
Type of pads that were used as replacement (semi-metallic or ceramic)?
Who made/re-manufactured the replaced caliper? Was the caliper bled after being replaced?

I don't have a 2009, but it seems that a special caliper piston adjustment tool is needed when installing rear pads that compresses and rotates the piston: http://www.justanswer.com/pontiac/4zery ... s-fit.html

[tpollauf]

Another "no brake" expert here BU*T an owner of a 2009 Vibe. What engine do you have? The 1.8l has smaller rotors & disc brakes than the 2.4l models. Not sure but is it possible to interchange calipers on the wrong size rotors? If so then that could be your problem. Just curious. Fill us in with more info and maybe someone else can chime in with suggestions.

[jolt]

Why were the brakes changed in the first place, what was wrong that started all of this with the brakes? You do have the proper caliper for the side of the car? There is a left rear and a right rear caliper, it has to due with the emergency brake being built into the caliper piston. Did you replace both calipers when you did the first rear brake job? After the first rear brake job is that when the one side started to wear out the pads? The drivers side is the left rear caliper.

When only the inside pad wears, the first thing I would check is the piston movement in the caliper. The seals in the caliper are the only thing that retracts the piston back into the caliper and this is typically about 0.003". Push the brake pedal down, release the brakes and check the clearance between the pads and rotor with a feeler gauge. See which side is tight to the rotor. It should be the out side pad as the piston will retract freeing the inside pad. Check that the caliper moves freely on the mounting pins. "Lubricate the 2 slide pins (1, 2) and lubricate the 2 NEW slide pin boots (1, 2)with lithium soap base glycol grease or Silicone Brake Lubricant, or equivalent." as per GM to make sure caliper slides freely. "If the caliper piston is not compressed into the caliper bore, use a commercially available caliper piston tool in order to turn the piston in as far as possible. Turn the piston in order to align the piston groove 90 degrees from a line between the caliper slide pin bores. Align the piston groove with the protrusion on the brake pad."

Is there anything wrong with the anti-lock brake system? Is the light on on the dash for the ABS? Did you check if the ABS light works? Something wrong with the yaw rate sensor or a wheel speed sensor that is keeping brake pressure applied to that wheel? Any ABS trouble codes? More stuff to check but if you what to find the problem, you have to verify and double check.

[butternutaud]

Thanks everyone for the tips! I'm in the middle of the repair right now. I've just installed a new brake hose and pads. The thought was that the original brake hose might be collapsing internally and not allowing fluid to return. One thing I am not positive on is the location of the pad with the wear indicator. I have put it on the inside with the tab on the bottom. Am checking to see if that is correct.

Let me answer some questions...

It is the 2009 1.8L two wheel drive with integrated E-brake on the caliper.

It is definitely the correct side for the caliper. I'm not sure who the rebuild company is - sourced locally from a reputable parts supplier. I did speak to the parts counter man and he said it was unlikely that the caliper was defective but would warranty it if need be.

ABS light is working (at engine start up) and is not on while running. No codes.

Ceramic pads.

I did clean the caliper sliding bolts, re-lube with proper grease and checked for freedom of the caliper as well as the pads within the housing. The tabs on the pads were also greased.

More history.. Since this car has over 117K on it, I have done all the brakes twice before with no issues. This time I did do rotors and pads on both sides initially. Three of the pads were fine but the driver's side inner was down to the wear indicator. Replaced pads on that side only and less than a month same issue. Again I changed all four pads but one mistake I did make was to have my wife pump the brakes while I was checking my installation on the passenger side. At the same time the driver's side caliper was off the rotor. The piston was unfortunately pushed all the way to the point of leaking. I tried to retract it with the special tool but couldn't get it all the way in so I ordered a new caliper. At that point I thought it might of been sticking anyway. Also I wasn't absolutely sure that I had correctly oriented the locating pin on the new pad with the recess on the caliper piston face. Each time I've taken the wheel off the inner pad is totally shot and the piston is fully extended.

The wheel speed sensor is a good tip. Could it be faulty without any code being thrown? How hard to change? I sure hope to heck it isn't ABS issue!

Thanks, tom

[vibrologist]

I once had a situation with the e-brake on a Mazda Protege. When investigating it I found among other things the equalizer was rusted and frozen.
I don't think this is will happen in a Vibe. None the less, make sure the cables move free and evenly.

09 vibe e-brake cables,small.jpg (18.93 KiB) Viewed 3776 times

link to full size image:http://www.tonkinonlineparts.com/showAs ... lYear=2009

[jolt]

A bad wheel speed sensor should cause the ABS light to come on. Is the e-brake lever on the caliper returning all the way back to rest on the bracket? The return spring is attached to the bottom of the e-brake lever on the back of the caliper and the lever moves freely throughout it range? To eliminate the e-brake as a cause of the problem, try leaving the e-brake cable disconnected from the caliper and see how it goes. You will not have an e-brake once this is done but if the wear goes away you then have a better understanding of what is causing the wear. Do this at your risk and make sure you understand what could happen with the cable disconnected.

With the wheel in the air, can you spin the wheel freely? Have someone apply the brakes as you spin the wheel and when the brakes are released does the wheel spin freely again? Do this same thing again with the car on and the engine running, do you get the same results as with the engine off?

Here are some diagrams that may help you:

Park brake lever on caliper

rear park cable.jpg (49.38 KiB) Viewed 3768 times

pad stack.jpg (34.24 KiB) Viewed 3768 times

rear pad clips.jpg (53.32 KiB) Viewed 3768 times

[butternutaud]

Hi. The ABS light does come on with initial power on (dashboard test) but does go out once vehicle is running. Have never had it on that I'm aware off.

The E-brake does return all the way to the stop and I have watched this while my wife is actuating the brake. The rotor turns freely as it should. I don't believe it is an e brake issue.

I noticed in the parts diagram you included that there are pad retainers on both sides. The last 3 sets of pads I have bought didn't come with them. So I assumed they were not necessary????

In the last 6 or so times I've had the car jacked up and worked on the brake I have always checked the wheel for free rotation and after a half-dozen or so times of applying the brake. This morning I compared the amount of rotation effort with both rear wheels. Very similar, a mild spin of the tire by hand produces around 1 full rotation. I did notice some grinding noise so I cleaned some of the rust buildup on both sides of the rotor. (this rotor is only a little over a month old).

I also checked "run out" with an indicator gauge and saw virtually no dial movement. (hought being that it was maybe a warped rotor from over heating)

We took it for a quick test ride and the grinding in that wheel is back. As soon as the piston starts to increment in to self-adjust it is no longer quiet nor smooth in its rotation with the car jacked up. It is not stiff but does have a grinding noise.

Just about ready to take it to the shop......

[gtv237]

Its most likely a collapsed hose. It's very common problem.

[lannvouivre]

Its most likely a collapsed hose. It's very common problem.

Aren't the hoses inexpensive to replace as well?

[butternutaud]

Hi. Thanks for the tip. I had forgotten to mention in my last post that I did change that brake hose yesterday. We didn't drive the car today because of the grinding sound as soon as the piston starts to self-adjust putting pressure on the inner pad. I also checked to make sure that the wear indicator was in the right position. That pad will not fit on the outside and will only go one way on the inside. There is a relief in the caliper frame for it.

Will probably try the car again tomorrow. Sometimes you just gotta walk away from a very frustrating repair.

[gtv237]

No need to take it to the shop! Snap me a couple pictures of the side in question and I will try to get this issue resolved as soon as possible.

I took a minute to read the whole thread and did catch one red flag. You said something about the pad retainers. Are you referring to the sheet metal shims? The shims are 100% necessary. If they are not there then that certainly has to be fixed first as you can have all sorts of problems without them. Also make sure the pads are fairly loose in the shims. If you have to pound them in at all, something is wrong.

The 'grinding' sound has me puzzled. Did you replace or resurface the rotor? If not its possible that the pad is just a hair wider than the old one and may be hitting rust on the rotor. Another possibility is that the pad shims may be loose or bent and could be rubbing the rotor. And don't forget the backing plate. They can easily bend and touch the back of the rotor.

[butternutaud]

Hi. Thanks for the info. You are correct there are no sheet metal shims. The retainer clips are new. I will try and buy some shims today. I did check the back plate and it is not rubbing. The rotor was replaced about a month ago but yesterday I did clean off some residual rust buildup that the pad might hit on its top and bottom.

[beemerphile1]

I am unhappy with the service life of my rear brakes. It reads like my issue is different than yours or at least less extreme.

At 40,000 miles the rear pads were gone and I had metal on metal. When replacing I found that the left was worn much more than the right. At the bottom of the pad (closest to hub) the pad was nearly as thick as original with almost no wear. The top of the pad was completely worn off. The pads had a very noticeable angle to the wear, obviously they are not hitting the rotor squarely across the entire surface of the pad.

At 40,000 miles the front pads still had lots of material left even though the rear were completely worn. That is the opposite of my previous experience with all other cars. I am the original owner and the only person to ever service the Vibe's brakes.

At 50,000 miles I had metal on metal again. This time it was the right side that was worn out although both sides are worn at the same extreme angle and not contacting across the entire surface.

This time I installed preloaded calipers and will see if the problem is solved.

In response to some inquiries about possibly using the wrong rotor. It isn't possible to install the wrong rotor because the 1.8L and the 2.4L have different lug bolt patterns as well as different rotor diameter.

[butternutaud]

I believe I have the brakes fixed. No more heat, no more extensive pad wear. Almost two weeks, around 500 miles or more with no issues. Everything running cool. I just pulled the wheel and checked rotor and pads. They are fine.

So here's where I screwed up. I keep maintenance records of our vehicles. Previously I had quickly checked and noted that the rotors had been changed a few months ago. So through out this process I assumed that they were still ok. Having only casually looked at the inner surface (and not wanting to pull the bracket) I figured it was fine, some rust as you would expect. I had also done brake work on our truck as well recently.

This time I pulled the caliper bracket off and removed the rotor to clean it up better just in case it was part of the problem. It was now a lot more obvious that it was very pitted, rusty and no shiny part where the pad would normally wipe. So I re-read my records and it turns out they had not been changed recently but over 3 years ago. I had confused them with the front rotors that I had changed.

I believe the nasty rotor surface was just grinding away at the new pads. After a few weeks they were shot.

Bought new rotors and pads. Also installed a new brake hose just in case that it wasn't allowing pressure relief. I don't think that had anything to do with the problem.

Lesson learned.