Vibe is stuck at the mall! HELP!

[ken99287]

Here's the story. The car hasn't been started in almost 2 weeks. I just came home from harrisburg with the new plates and registration so I decided to drive it to the sears to pick up an internet order. The mall is only 1 mile from my house, so no problem - or so I thought!

At home, it was hard to start. It cranked really really slow at first and slowly it started cranking faster. Took about 20 seconds of creaking to start. This is strange. It normally starts right away, even with a weak battery and weak cranking.

I figured it was just the battery and that by the time I drive a few circles around my neighborhood and went to the mall, if would have enough charge. That was a dumb move on my part. I should have realized it wasn't a battery issue - windows went up and down quickly, doors unlocked with a crisp "snap"...

Well it won't start now. Lights work, radio makes noise (it's broken, it just makes mechanical noise), fans work, everything seems to work. When I try to crank it, all the lights and radio and fans stop just like it's supposed to. Weird thing is, when I turn the ignition to "on", the EFI relay by the fender buzzes and vibrates. I swapped the horn relay and the fog light relay, same buzzing.

I read that a bad ground might cause the buzz? I don't know. I do have one ground that is not connected properly. It was disconnected before I bought it so I have no idea how to route it. I do know I have no ground going to the strut tower area behind air box. My auto has one there.

Any ideas?

The security guards were nice enough to let me keep the car there for a couple days to figure it out.

HELP!

I feel so dumb - I should have recognized it wasn't the battery before I left the house! Even if it was, I should have charged it first...

I had my wife bring me the jump box with my auto vibe - she was not happy about that...

Dumb mistake!

[vibrologist]

Hi Ken:
Stuff happens.
First you need to know that I am fairly new to Vibes but I have been doing some advising for a number of years on other boards.

I think you are on the right track. This could be a voltage drop either because of a bad ground or because of another contact that is not snug. This is assuming there is gas in the tank and the pump is working alright.
In your case I would disconnect the battery cables at the posts and clean them thoroughly, reconnect and tighten them well without stripping any threads. Now see if it starts.

No luck? Take the battery out and take it to a parts store for testing. A dying battery can fool you.

Now about the ground that is not connected properly: let's say one end is connected somewhere on the body, then you want do connect the other end somewhere on the engine or transmission. Always clean the contact areas at the cable shoe and the body or engine part.

Next you may want to check the connections at the alternator. Same pattern: disconnect, clean reconnect.

Still no success? how about the connections at the starter?

If this is all new to you there are some good introductory videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAjM9Gk63M4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ken99287]

Thanks for replying!

I forgot to say that I tried to roll start it. When I popped the clutch, it kinda kicked on, but not really. Maybe it was like half running? Could it be no/weak spark or no fuel? Sounds like efi issue, no?

The car would not crank at all after getting to the mall, even with a jump box on it. That kinda rules out an empty gas tank or battery, I think. It's gotta be some wiring issue, I think.

It was starting easily a couple weeks ago, then today it would barely crank, and at the mall, it wouldn't crank at all and the efi relay was buzzing...

The battery has died on me before, and as long as I could get a couple cranks, it starts up fine. The lights were dim and the doors would barely unlock. This isn't like that.

I want to bypass the efi relay. The relay has one switch terminal, one ground terminal, one terminal to the + on the battery, and one terminal that we want 12v to go to. I should just be able to jump the terminal that goes to the battery and the terminal that goes to the efi circuit. I should probably jump it with one of those in-line fuses for safety reasons.

What do you think? Would a bad ground cause the relay to buzz? I'm guessing it's buzzing because it's not able to fully kick on so the "flapper" is just vibrating instead of fully engaging and bridging the connection?

[vibrologist]

It could be a fuel delivery issue.
Do you have enough fuel in the tank? Let's say at least the "fuel empty light" should not be on.
Do you hear the fuel pump at all? (It could be hard to tell, I never listened for that in my Vibe). The best thing would be measuring the fuel pressure.

It still could be electrical. It could even be the alternator. If you can take it out the parts store can test it for you and for free.

More on no start conditions:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... y+no+start" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ken99287]

I don't see how it can be a fuel issue. The fuel level should have no effect on whether the engine will crank. In my opinion. And lack of fuel should not make the relay buzz.

I found this about buzzing relays


"Well, I have to disagree with the other answer. A short on the load side of a relay will not cause it too buzz, ever! At best it would short out the relay contacts from excessive current flow. 

The relay will start to buzz when the magnetic field the coil generates get so weak that it's barely enough to overcome the return spring on the contact arm (this is all inside the relay). 

In the situation you described above, this can only happen for two reasons; One the voltage applied to the relay is dropping below the latch voltage. In a 12V system this is usually near 8V. This could be from a bad connection to the relay, etc. 

You can verify this by hooking up a meter to the relay and monitoring the voltage across the coil terminals. If this is the problem you need to trace the voltage supply (back to the battery if required) and find the bad connection. 

It's also possible the the system voltage is dropping from a bad alternator. You can test this the same way as above, just check the battery voltage too (it should never drop below 12.6V and should normally be above 13V) 

Of course the relay itself may have failed. If you have a few shorted windings in the coil of the relay, you also will not have enough magnetic pull on the relay arm to fully overcome the return spring. Heat will make it worse as the efficiency of a relay drops as temperature goes up."

I'm going to drive out there and check the battery terminals and maybe try running a better ground.

I may be totally wrong, but I'm going to try the easiest first! Haha.

oh, I have fuel though, about half a tank. I don't think any of the efi stuff is working right cuz the relay is having trouble sending power to the circuit.

I'll be back in half an hour!

[ken99287]

That took longer than I thought it would.

Turns out the wires in the brand new battery terminals are corroding... I took off both sets of wires, knocked all the white gunk off, used a file to really make it shine, reinstalled everything, added several grounds to different parts of the body and she started right up. I'll have to buy the battery terminal spray tomorrow and really douse the terminals/wires.

I tried starting it up after doing the + terminal, but same thing. After doing the negative and adding grounds, she started. So it wasa ground issue, it would seem. Weird. When it wasn't starting, the lights on the dash would flicker too. Glad it was simple.

The only issue now is my wife refuses to drive me back to the mall to get the car.

Thank you again for the help. The group and the forum are real life savers!

[vibrologist]

Hah!
There you go.
It is not weird that a corrosion on the negative is causing trouble. Look at current the same way as a loop of a garden hose from a tank and back to it. Of course that loop will go through a devise that uses the waterflow. Now imagine that garden hose has a kink right before it goes back into the tank. Of course that slows the flow in the whole loop, including the devise that needs a minimum of flow.

The only issue now is my wife refuses to drive me back to the mall to get the car.

Ask her to find a better husband! You saved the family a good bunch of money.

[jake75]

The only issue now is my wife refuses to drive me back to the mall to get the car.

I never have any trouble getting my wife to go to the mall.

[Doug14]

I'm more upset about your wife complaining about driving a mile or 2 to help get your car. We have one car, I spend at least an hour extra every day getting her to work, she loves this car as much as I do. I don't mean to offend, it's just weird to me.

[joatmon]

Glad it's fixed. I've had plenty of issues with battery terminal corrosion, so you have my sympathy

I never have any trouble getting my wife to go to the mall.

A friend told me his wife was driving him to drink, I told him mine makes me walk

[ken99287]

I'm more upset about your wife complaining about driving a mile or 2 to help get your car. We have one car, I spend at least an hour extra every day getting her to work, she loves this car as much as I do. I don't mean to offend, it's just weird to me.

It was well after midnight and she was already in bed. She took me first thing the next morning.

[lannvouivre]

I'm more upset about your wife complaining about driving a mile or 2 to help get your car. We have one car, I spend at least an hour extra every day getting her to work, she loves this car as much as I do. I don't mean to offend, it's just weird to me.

It was well after midnight and she was already in bed. She took me first thing the next morning.

I was going to say that she sounds like a mean lady!

[Doug14]

Fair enough! That's understandable, glad all is fixed!

[ken99287]

Well its not ALL fixed, still have a few issues to work out.

[tpollauf]

Well its not ALL fixed, still have a few issues to work out.

Issues with the Vibe OR the wife Couldn't resist that one

[KingTen91]

Ahhh, if only an upvote was available

[ken99287]

"Upvote"?