Rough idle, Hesitation at take off

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Thatguy256
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Rough idle, Hesitation at take off

Post by Thatguy256 »

I have a 2005 Pontiac base auto w/ 60k. Every once in a while the vehicle will not start on first attempt and once it does it has a rough/low idle. When i press the gas the rpms actually drop 50 to 75 before picking up causing a half second hesitation. When i turn on the AC the problem is worst. No mods have been done on the car and just changed the plugs and air filter. I also ran some lucas fuel treatment with no change I only use Shell gas 92 octane. The problem has been getting worst over the past 1k and now hardly ever runs smooth. I plan on cleaning the mass air flow senser and intake. I am debating on changing the fuel filter as well. When i changed the plugs i did not some pits on the top of three out the four plugs but there is no real way to properly ensure the Coil packs are seated well on the plug so I have scratched that idea.
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808 Vibes
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Re: Rough idle, Hesitation at take off (Thatguy256)

Post by 808 Vibes »

Welcome! changing the fuel filter after 60k doesn't sound like a bad idea. Don't forget to post a pic...it pleases the GenVibeGods
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ToolGuy
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Re: Rough idle, Hesitation at take off (Thatguy256)

Post by ToolGuy »

If there are no check engine lights on, I would also clean out the throttle body, and the IAC (Idle Air Control). You can buy the spray can cleaner at the auto stores and follow the can directions and then take the IAC out and clean it and the hole. Also use a celan rag and wipe out the TB after you spray the cleaner in it. Once the cleaner is sprayed in, that car will not want to start quickly, and since it has a staring issue already, you may have to give the car gas, to get it to start. I would run a bottle of ChevronTechron fuel system cleaner in it, I feel it is the best and a GM tech friend of mine says it works. It could also be your throttle postion sensor, There is no way to clean it, and it must be replaced. A scan tool can tell if it is operating correctly or not.Did you use the same kind of plug that you took out of the car? Or go with something else?You sure you did not strip a spark plug hole when you install the new plugs?And I do not follow you with the pits? Pits on the bottom electrode?Also, do not use the 92 in your car. It is not a GT, so you are wasting your moeny. Plus you could also be causing more carbon build up since the engine does not need all that Octane. Go back to 87, that engine was designed to run on it. I love Hawaii, so pay for my plane ticket and I will come fix it for you!
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joatmon
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Re: Rough idle, Hesitation at take off (Thatguy256)

Post by joatmon »

did the problems start with the plug and filter change, or was that done to try to fix the existing problem?
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Thatguy256
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Re: Rough idle, Hesitation at take off (joatmon)

Post by Thatguy256 »

Thanks for the advice everyone. so far i am currently trying to track down the best place for a fuel filter. Hard to find one here in hawaii. I upgraded the plugs from NGK to Bosch Platinum 2, the plugs were an attempt to fix the problem. The new plugs helped a small amount and increased the gas mileage a bit. The pits i am talking about are on the the top of the plug, and only on cylinders 1 - 2 and some on 3. Not really sure if is normal or not I haven't seen it happen before in any of my previous cars. I just finished the tank that had some Lucas fuel treatment in it. Still no real change. This weekend I plan on cleaning the MAF and throttlebody. I am also going to check the IAC and ensure it is working properly.
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808 Vibes
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Re: Rough idle, Hesitation at take off (Thatguy256)

Post by 808 Vibes »

Have you checked with the Fooooegr (downtown) parts dep't and the Futter (Waipahu) parts dept? I used to get mine from Jaxon (airport)
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ToolGuy
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Re: Rough idle, Hesitation at take off (Thatguy256)

Post by ToolGuy »

OK, so it started happening before the new plugs. Got it... I would not have switched to Bosch, but that is just me. A friend with a Rabbit many years ago did and his tech said get them out. They burned at a different range that what the engine is supposed to have (put Champion back in). I suppose you could pull all the plugs and inspect them too while you are under the hood. It would not hurt. When you are using the TB cleaner, do not be afraid to use a rag and open and close the TB by hand, pushing the rag in the TB as far as you can. Any fibers from the rag will simply fall into the intake and burn up once the engine runs. Wipe it out good!You know the fuel filter is NOT the "in line" kind, found on many older cars? This filter is in the tank, at the pump, so it is not a 15 minute job. So basically the only defense is a cleaner like ChevronTechron, to try and keep the filter clean. If the pump itself was going, there could be some whining with it. You could check fuel pressure too, to eliminate that, if you have a gauge. I do not know what normal is for this engine myself, it may be posted somewhere on the site though. If the fitler were clogged, you would see symptoms at all RPM range and eventually one day, the car just would not start. Personally, I would not do the filter until you have done all of the above. Just my 2 cents. Also, check all your vacuum lines while under the hood.And make sure your battery cables are clean and tight. This is basic, but can cause issues... So, do what you are going to and then report back!
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Post by Sublimewind »

you could try and go through some of the diagnostics found here... http://madstyle1972.com/Repair/It's for the 03' but should suffice for your year..
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808 Vibes
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Re: Rough idle, Hesitation at take off (ToolGuy)

Post by 808 Vibes »

Quote, originally posted by ToolGuy »You know the fuel filter is NOT the "in line" kind, found on many older cars?Whaaaaaaaaaaaaa?? No flare nut wrenches easy squeazy job?!
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Re: Rough idle, Hesitation at take off (HawaiiPontiacLover)

Post by ToolGuy »

Quote, originally posted by HawaiiPontiacLover »Whaaaaaaaaaaaaa?? No flare nut wrenches easy squeazy job?! Nope! It stinks too! I guess not enough people changed them out, so car companies took them off. One of many reasons I suppose. Now, when you get your 66' GTO, you willl have one under the hood then!
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808 Vibes
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Re: Rough idle, Hesitation at take off (ToolGuy)

Post by 808 Vibes »

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh I cannot wait! A beautiful spacious engine compartment. Ahhhhhhhhh!
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Thatguy256
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Re: Rough idle, Hesitation at take off

Post by Thatguy256 »

I am kinda superstitious when it comes to fuel filters so i am gonna change it every 60. I have already figured out what it takes to replace it seems like it wont be too bad. At least you can access it from under the rear seat. In the end I miss carbs, everything was so simple no computers. Also will post pics of my old plugs for 60k even if they were factory still excessively worn out. A lot of carbon build up and a significate bridged gap on all plugs.
Sublimewind
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Re: Rough idle, Hesitation at take off (ToolGuy)

Post by Sublimewind »

Quote, originally posted by ToolGuy »Nope! It stinks too! I guess not enough people chagned them out, so car companies took them off. One of many reasons I suppose. Now, when you get your 66' GTO, you willl have one under the hood then! On my Subie, it's hanging off one of the front shock towers..!! Which reminds me, I need to change it... good PM..
ToolGuy
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Re: Rough idle, Hesitation at take off (Sublimewind)

Post by ToolGuy »

Quote, originally posted by Sublimewind »On my Subie, it's hanging off one of the front shock towers..!! Which reminds me, I need to change it... good PM.. My Vette is one of the last years to have one too. Glad it does!
Sublimewind
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Post by Sublimewind »

Did I ever mention how sexay that Vette is... lol... Pure sexors...
ToolGuy
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Re: (Sublimewind)

Post by ToolGuy »

Quote, originally posted by Sublimewind »Did I ever mention how sexay that Vette is... lol... Pure sexors... No, but thanks man! It has thin 5 spoke 2001 Vette rims on it now too. Just got them. LED brake and tail lamps as well. Your Subi is really nice as well. Looks really tough and the color combinations you have done with it look great! I can tell you drive it like me, but still keep it up real well.
Sublimewind
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Post by Sublimewind »

Thanks, She is rather tough, would take the unsuspecting Vette owner, without much trouble... try it in the rain and it'd be no contest, with ANY Vette... lol..I like the z06 wheels myself.. Though the skinny spokes are nice, they just look weaker... Do you still have the stockers? you should paint'em black and give it a shot.. it'd look sinister.. lol..
ToolGuy
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Re: (Sublimewind)

Post by ToolGuy »

Funny, I was trying to get Z06 wheels, but could not find them locally to inspect first. The rims I finally got where a great deal, but where the third set I looked at!I do still have the other rims. Sadly they are not worth more then maybe $50, as they are the most undesirable Vette rims of all. Scrap is probably worth more! But yeah I could paint them black and try that look.Maybe one day I could ride in your car. Never been in an AWD with power, for a ride.
Sublimewind
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Post by Sublimewind »

Anytime brotha.., I mean when I finally get it out of the garage, I haven't even DRIVEN it this year, i'm working on the audio, which i'm close on, but the car is gutted.. I did get the carpet back in the other night, though..Once she's on the road, I do a lot of meets and shows.. most of which are down your way.. (i'm about 2.5-3hrs north of D-town)I'd be happy to take you out... it's a violent ride.. lol.. lots of amazing noises, none of which sound like a healthy v8 though...lol...I think we derailed this thread though...lol..
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808 Vibes
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Re: (Sublimewind)

Post by 808 Vibes »

at least now I got a hint of what to keep my eye open for when I'm out that way (Twice a month now my dog goes to the vet there.) I flash the V to Vibes I see everywhere I go, but just get back dopey blank stares. Boooo. No fun
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djkeev
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Re: Rough idle, Hesitation at take off (Thatguy256)

Post by djkeev »

Quote, originally posted by Thatguy256 »......... In the end I miss carbs, everything was so simple no computers....... I was raised in the carb era and also bemoaned their departure from the motoring world. Now that the years have slipped by and I've seen first hand the superiority of the fuel injection system coupled with computers and coil less / wire less ignition systems, I'd never go back. Sure carbs are simple things. They are easy to clean and adjust for they always needed it ALL OF THE TIME. They were a service nightmare! The reliability and lack of maintenance that the average FI system needs leaves the old carb so far back in the dust it isn't even funny.A carb would never be able to deliver the fuel economy, low emissions and performance that even the most basic FI system does.Just get a good book, educate yourself of FI and you won't hate it so much. It is only a lack of FI knowledge that makes you miss the old carb. A few basic diagnosis tools such as a $5 volt/ohm meter and you are golden for most repairs. An OBDII diagnosis tool and a laptop will often tell you exactly what is wrong and what part to replace with no thinking required at all, just plug it in and drive!Think for a moment how many thousands and thousands and thousands of trouble free miles you get from a modern car versus the old carbed models of the 50's, 60's and the worst of all the 70's!No, Fuel Injection is far far far better than any carb ever thought of being!Good LuckDave
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Sublimewind
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Re: (HawaiiPontiacLover)

Post by Sublimewind »

Quote, originally posted by HawaiiPontiacLover »at least now I got a hint of what to keep my eye open for when I'm out that way (Twice a month now my dog goes to the vet there.) I flash the V to Vibes I see everywhere I go, but just get back dopey blank stares. Boooo. No fun Yeah, much of the camaraderie is gone these days.. I remember back in the early 90's when I had my VW GTi.... If I saw another one, they where looking at me looking at them and 99% of the time I got the or the V.... Not so much anymore.. I mean when I first got my Subaru, I was part of a rather elite club if you will, it was pre-WRX and only a few of the RS's that got the WRX stateside where on the road.. but after the WRX hit, much of that went away because anyone could/would buy them, not just the "enthusiast"
Sublimewind
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Re: Rough idle, Hesitation at take off (Thatguy256)

Post by Sublimewind »

Quote, originally posted by Thatguy256 »I have a 2005 Pontiac base auto w/ 60k. Every once in a while the vehicle will not start on first attempt and once it does it has a rough/low idle. When i press the gas the rpms actually drop 50 to 75 before picking up causing a half second hesitation. When i turn on the AC the problem is worst. No mods have been done on the car and just changed the plugs and air filter. I also ran some lucas fuel treatment with no change I only use Shell gas 92 octane. The problem has been getting worst over the past 1k and now hardly ever runs smooth. I plan on cleaning the mass air flow senser and intake. I am debating on changing the fuel filter as well. When i changed the plugs i did not some pits on the top of three out the four plugs but there is no real way to properly ensure the Coil packs are seated well on the plug so I have scratched that idea.Another thought, have you had the car scanned? You can go to AutoZone oe similar and have the codes pulled.. You may have a "soft-code" that doesn't throw a CEL.. HawaiiPontiacLover, do you know of a place to have that done? can't quite jump the pond and hit one in Cali... lol..
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808 Vibes
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Re: Rough idle, Hesitation at take off (Sublimewind)

Post by 808 Vibes »

I'm not sure...but I've never heard of any non-dealer place here pulling codes like that.We don't have "Auto Zone". We have Checker and Napa. Can't hurt to call and ask though.
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Thatguy256
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Re: Rough idle, Hesitation at take off (HawaiiPontiacLover)

Post by Thatguy256 »

Quote, originally posted by HawaiiPontiacLover »I'm not sure...but I've never heard of any non-dealer place here pulling codes like that.We don't have "Auto Zone". We have Checker and Napa. Can't hurt to call and ask though. Here in hawaii there is no place that will pull codes anymore. Checkers used to about 3 years ago but no more. Napa will not either. I have heard Rons will then I hear they wont. I asked checkers why they dont scan cars anymore and they said "too many people were trying to sue them". Apparently people were replacing the sensor that was pulling the code instead of thinking what could cause this sensor to be pulling something. IE a worn out Catlytic converter causing an O2 sensor to pull a code. I ended up buying a OBDII reader it also does live data but is rather sluggish on the live data. I have already hooked it up to see if it will pull any code and it there is not a single code in it.
Thatguy256
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Re: Rough idle, Hesitation at take off (djkeev)

Post by Thatguy256 »

Quote, originally posted by djkeev »I was raised in the carb era and also bemoaned their departure from the motoring world. Now that the years have slipped by and I've seen first hand the superiority of the fuel injection system coupled with computers and coil less / wire less ignition systems, I'd never go back. Sure carbs are simple things. They are easy to clean and adjust for they always needed it ALL OF THE TIME. They were a service nightmare! The reliability and lack of maintenance that the average FI system needs leaves the old carb so far back in the dust it isn't even funny.A carb would never be able to deliver the fuel economy, low emissions and performance that even the most basic FI system does.Just get a good book, educate yourself of FI and you won't hate it so much. It is only a lack of FI knowledge that makes you miss the old carb. A few basic diagnosis tools such as a $5 volt/ohm meter and you are golden for most repairs. An OBDII diagnosis tool and a laptop will often tell you exactly what is wrong and what part to replace with no thinking required at all, just plug it in and drive!Think for a moment how many thousands and thousands and thousands of trouble free miles you get from a modern car versus the old carbed models of the 50's, 60's and the worst of all the 70's!No, Fuel Injection is far far far better than any carb ever thought of being!Good LuckDaveAgreed carbs did need constant tuning but here in hawaii the weather stays about the same year round tuning really is kept to minimum. The biggest thing I dont like about FI is the how the computer will put the car into a "safe mode" that will completly mask what is wrong with the car. Sure if you have a code reader you will know were to start. But you have to buy a manual for every car you drive that is FI. When it comes to fixing a car a carb is so much eaiser.
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808 Vibes
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Re: Rough idle, Hesitation at take off (Thatguy256)

Post by 808 Vibes »

Wow I haven't heard the name Ron's in ages. It was maybe 10, 15? 20? years ago they used to be in Waipahu in a space next to where I used to take my dogs to the vet. Then they were gone, and the clinic took that space over.
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ToolGuy
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Re: (Sublimewind)

Post by ToolGuy »

Quote, originally posted by Sublimewind »Anytime brotha.., I mean when I finally get it out of the garage, I haven't even DRIVEN it this year, i'm working on the audio, which i'm close on, but the car is gutted.. I did get the carpet back in the other night, though..Once she's on the road, I do a lot of meets and shows.. most of which are down your way.. (i'm about 2.5-3hrs north of D-town)I'd be happy to take you out... it's a violent ride.. lol.. lots of amazing noises, none of which sound like a healthy v8 though...lol...I think we derailed this thread though...lol.. Yeah sweet, possibly we can meet then! Good luck! Yeah we hijacked the thread but I looked at it as coming back and forth to try and help with thatguys issues. Sorry to thatguy but again, we can try and help, and by coming back and forth, I read that latest you have found on the car.
ToolGuy
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Re: Rough idle, Hesitation at take off (Thatguy256)

Post by ToolGuy »

Any new news on the driveability issues thatguy256?
Thatguy256
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Re: Rough idle, Hesitation at take off (ToolGuy)

Post by Thatguy256 »

Currently the cars lag caused from the drop of RPM is constant anytime I take off off from a dead stop. I have ordered a new fuel filter already figure it needs to be replaced anyway. This weekend the plan is to check for vacuum leaks and check the fuel presser. If those check out to be good, Iam gonna move onto the coilpacks and check to see if they are good. And finally if all that is good I am going to clean and check the mass air flow sensor. Figure while iam at it I might as well clean the throttle body as well. I hope to have this problem fixed by the end of this weekend. Sidenote the car does run better on 89 octane gas.
ToolGuy
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Re: Rough idle, Hesitation at take off (Thatguy256)

Post by ToolGuy »

Excellent plan! Just wondered in all my "car-guy-nerdy-automotiveness-fix-it -yourself mind"! Keep this updated and hope you figure it out. Did you find what fuel pressure should be? If not, I think I can get it for you...
Thatguy256
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Re: Rough idle, Hesitation at take off (ToolGuy)

Post by Thatguy256 »

After looking at everything the final conclusion is the torque converter. Confirmed this problem by a load test using a dyno. Also another issue that came up this weekend that is related to the problem is midway between cold and warm the car shifts slighty harder than normal, during this harder shifting phase is when the car has the hesitation and lower than normal idle etc... Also another point to add in since the car rarely hits 55mph due to alot of city driving the torque converter may not be completly bad she just needs some highway time. I did take her out onto the highway for 30 miles or so and the car is running better.
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