2009 Vibe GT lunges during aggressive braking

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JohnnieMo
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2009 Vibe GT lunges during aggressive braking

Postby JohnnieMo » Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:25 pm

I've had my car for about 4 months, and recently I've discovered a very un-nerving issue. The car is a 2009 Vibe GT Auto with 77,000km.

When I have to stop quickly, the brakes do the job well and the car comes to a stop. Just as the car approaches a velocity of zero, the car lurches forward a slight bit. My first thought was that the brakes were sticking and then releasing. However I tried the same test with the car in neutral, and the problem did not occur. So this tells me the car is applying power in this situation when it shouldn't be.

It is so bad my wife doesn't even want to drive the car anymore. She is afraid of it. It is quite an aggressive lunge and it makes you think something is wrong with the brakes. The RPM doesn't noticeably increase when this happens.

I did find at least one mention on the internet of this being prevalent with the Vibe, but I can't see how this wouldn't be a recall. My assumption is it is a problem with the torque converter, throttle (somewhere), or right in the computer itself. This problem could have been around for a while but I only noticed it once the roads de-iced.

Any wisdom would be appreciated.

JohnnieMo
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Caretaker
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Re: 2009 Vibe GT lunges during aggressive braking

Postby Caretaker » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:07 pm

Nope, it is not your brakes. It is your automatic transmission. I recommend getting a reflash of the computer from the dealer to see if that corrects the problem. If not, check the fluid to see if it is still cherry red and has no burnt smell or foam on the stick. If it is an actual transmission failure, I would expect it to exhibit other signs than just the lurch at stop signals, such as "slamming" in between gears, RPM lurches with no measurable increase in speed, and a several second delay in getting the transmission to activate reverse gear once you shift the lever to R. Nonetheless, if the transmissions control module (computer) is not playing well with the components, the lurch is very common, and a reflash would be in order. Best of luck.
Live it up: There will be plenty of time to be old when you die.
** 2009 Vibe: 1.8 liter automatic **
** 2010 Elantra Touring **
** 2007 Honda Fit Sport **

JohnnieMo
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Re: 2009 Vibe GT lunges during aggressive braking

Postby JohnnieMo » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:02 pm

I am taking it to the dealer tomorrow. Does this sound like a power train warranty related issue? I would say yes but I'm biased.

Transmission fluid looks perfect.
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Rayven01
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Re: 2009 Vibe GT lunges during aggressive braking

Postby Rayven01 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:23 pm

JohnnieMo wrote:Does this sound like a power train warranty related issue? I would say yes but I'm biased.

Yes, sounds like a transmission issue to me.
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JohnnieMo
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Re: 2009 Vibe GT lunges during aggressive braking

Postby JohnnieMo » Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:10 pm

Thanks. I will let you know what they say. I have noticed the initial shift into drive or reverse is a bit more abrupt than I'm used to. But my last car was an Acura TL.
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Re: 2009 Vibe GT lunges during aggressive braking

Postby Caretaker » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:52 am

....and I apologize about my misleading statement about the transmission fluid. Since we are dealing with all used Vibe's now, it is important that I clarify my comment. I doubt the following involves your car since you only have 48,000 miles on it, but it is worth throwing out there for other readers nonetheless. While it is true that you want to see tranny fluid that is a nice cherry red, finding cherry red fluid in a used Vibe could be a warning sign for two reasons:
1. If the fluid was never changed at a proper interval and someone decided to do a full on FLUSH of the tranny, particles (dried varnish essentially) could dislodge, making the transmission a hazard. This is why you will see some on this board oppose ever flushing a transmission out. When in doubt-drain it out - is the mantra to follow on used vehicles with an unknown vehicle history.
2. since you have an '09, your transmission has World Standard fluid in it from the factory. It is good for upwards of 100,000 miles. You will see a WS on your dipstick to confirm this. The first generation Vibes had Toyota type IV fluid, not WS. Our '09 GM owner's manual incorrectly states that our '09 Vibe has T-IV fluid. Should your fluid look brand new and the owner/dealer followed the owner's manual, you could have the wrong fluid in your transmission as a result of a drain/flush and a technician blindly following the owner's manual.
I personally don't know how to tell the difference between the two (visually). I just wanted to amend my comment in case you were aware that a drain/flush was done to the car at some point. Since you only have 48,000 miles on the car, it is HIGHLY unlikely that the fluid was ever changed. That would be way too early of an interval. I changed mine out only because I got a great price, and that was at the 60,000 mile mark.
Live it up: There will be plenty of time to be old when you die.
** 2009 Vibe: 1.8 liter automatic **
** 2010 Elantra Touring **
** 2007 Honda Fit Sport **

JohnnieMo
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Re: 2009 Vibe GT lunges during aggressive braking

Postby JohnnieMo » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:22 am

Wow. That is really important data. I was going to do my own transmission fluid change with the T-IV. I read it in the manual. The fluid looked very clean, almost too clean. I don't think it is original. The dealership said it was due to be changed but I told them no as the manual says it is pretty much good for life. That irked me.

As a side note apparently my warranty expired two weeks ago. I have no idea how a 2009 model car has already expired a 5 year power train warranty. ????
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Rayven01
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Re: 2009 Vibe GT lunges during aggressive braking

Postby Rayven01 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:36 am

JohnnieMo wrote:I have no idea how a 2009 model car has already expired a 5 year power train warranty. ????

It's the "model year" thing. My 2009 was actually built in February '08 and sold as a fleet vehicle pretty much immediately, so my warranty is also up.
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JohnnieMo
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Re: 2009 Vibe GT lunges during aggressive braking

Postby JohnnieMo » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:09 am

Rayven01 wrote:
JohnnieMo wrote:I have no idea how a 2009 model car has already expired a 5 year power train warranty. ????

It's the "model year" thing. My 2009 was actually built in February '08 and sold as a fleet vehicle pretty much immediately, so my warranty is also up.


I think that is pure garbage. Unsuspecting buyers like me end up buying a car that is potentially 2 years older than it could be. And we run out of warranty. It is great for re-sale value, but crap for the poor buyer.
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JohnnieMo
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Re: 2009 Vibe GT lunges during aggressive braking

Postby JohnnieMo » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:30 am

Well I took it in and naturally they were unable to reproduce the problem. So I tried it afterwards and sure enough, the problem is completely gone. I have no idea why it was happening ALL the time, then stopped as soon as the car hit the shop. So far it hasn't happened since. All they did was a multi-point inspection of the vehicle and swap out the master window switch from a recall. I don't see how any of that would have affected the power train.
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Re: 2009 Vibe GT lunges during aggressive braking

Postby Caretaker » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:09 pm

yeah, sorry for that. I play the same game with my dealer. They have had my car in for the bendix gear starter motor issue for well over 15 full days over the past year. They only replicated the problem once and then performed the wrong repair. The other day, I brought the car in for the window panel grease job, and wouldn't you know it, the bendix gear gives out its twice a month screech in my driveway enroute to the dealership. It is pure torture. I have the car in again tonight so they can apply the Toyota grease which they had to order. I asked them to be cognizant of the starting of my car tomorrow morning, just in case we get lucky and the starter decides to reveal itself.
Live it up: There will be plenty of time to be old when you die.
** 2009 Vibe: 1.8 liter automatic **
** 2010 Elantra Touring **
** 2007 Honda Fit Sport **

Dairgo
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Re: 2009 Vibe GT lunges during aggressive braking

Postby Dairgo » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:19 pm

WAAAAAAAAAY late to the party here...

I've got the same problem with my 2009 Vibe GT. On some pretty aggressive brakes, and on some normal ones like from 15mph to a stop. it'll come to almost a complete stop and then lunge a little. I was able to get the mechanic shop that is go to, to reproduce it. They believe it to be the torque converter. only one way to know for sure, and that'll cost an arm and a leg to do ($1800), still calling around to see if I can get a better quote and get a confirmation on a replacement part. The GM part is 19205518, I can get if anywhere from just under $300 to around $500. The DACCO part, I can't confirm whether it's TO75 or TO42LS, or neither. DACCO says it's TO42LS, but everywhere I put the number in, says it's not compatible with my car, same for the TO75 (hint: it's for the AWD).

I'm keeping the car as trade-in value is likely not worth it (148,000 miles on a 8 year old car). So it comes down to do I live with it, or get it fixed before the parts become more scarce.

JohnnieMo
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Re: 2009 Vibe GT lunges during aggressive braking

Postby JohnnieMo » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:50 pm

Thanks for posting your experience. I am convinced it is the torque converter. It is the only thing that makes sense. A transmission flush could cure it also, but most folks say that can cause as much harm as good. However if you are going to replace it anyways what does it matter?

Mine is still doing this at 122,500km. It only quit for a few days when I took it to the dealer. Now it is back and I assume it will do it forever. Since I expect the car to do it, I brake accordingly. It's funny as I now drive all cars (rentals etc.) like they will exhibit this same problem.

Shabby Toyota engineering I say.
2009 Pontiac Vibe GT

Dairgo
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Re: 2009 Vibe GT lunges during aggressive braking

Postby Dairgo » Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:45 am

Well, I'll be able to tell you exactly what my problem is next week Friday. As I was getting a quote from a dealership, I described my problem to the service guy, he didn't think it sounded like a torque converter problem, but rather a transmission pressure solenoid problem. I said I was open to a second opinion if they had a transmission guy (not looking to put $2K into the vehicle). So I have a diagnostic appointment next week Thursday at 10am.

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tpollauf
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Re: 2009 Vibe GT lunges during aggressive braking

Postby tpollauf » Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:55 am

Dairgo wrote: he didn't think it sounded like a torque converter problem, but rather a transmission pressure solenoid problem.


Makes me glad my Vibe has the 5-speed manual transmission 8-) My son's though, which is an automatic, does not have signs of this problem yet! Keep us posted when you get the diagnostic report :D
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Dairgo
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Re: 2009 Vibe GT lunges during aggressive braking

Postby Dairgo » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:27 am

Ok... so the big day arrived and went...

10am at the Chevy Dealer, diagnostic appointment. They came back and said they wouldn't even attempt diagnosis (transmission guy won't touch these half'n'half products), well gee, could have called and told me that before wasting my time. They directed me to the nearest Toyota Dealership around 10:30.

10:45am at the Toyota Dealership, diagnostic appointment. They were able to duplicate the problem. They drained and looked at the fluid, flashed the computer to have it relearn, the problem persisted after this. Note, when they were draining the fluid it smelt strange, almost maybe burnt, but the fluid looked fine, no discoloration.

Diagnostic answer: problem lies in the valve body.

Diagnostic solutions: replace the transmission, or rebuild/repair

Pricing... fun fun, how much do I love my vibe? (the answer is lots!)

Toyota's prices:
$2300 for a used transmission with 149K miles on it
$2300 for a repair/rebuild of my transmission
$2800 for a used transmission with 12k miles on it
$4500 for a new transmission
(no financing options available)

Chevy/GM prices:
$2350 for a used transmission with 75k miles on it
$4300 for a new transmission (3yr/100k mile warranty)
(12 month, 0% interest financing available, GM card)

Aamco:
still waiting to hear

Independent auto repair shop:
$1859 for a used transmission with 87k miles on it (1 yr parts and labor warranty)

waiting on the final two quotes, then going to make a decision. Likely not going with a new transmission, just not economical. A used or rebuilt/repair mine is likely the option, question is... who can make me the best offer.
Last edited by Dairgo on Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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tpollauf
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Re: 2009 Vibe GT lunges during aggressive braking

Postby tpollauf » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:23 pm

Man that S U CK S Ian :x If it is not real bad then maybe just live with it like JohnnyMo has for some three years and counting! This does not sound like a common problem but rather isolated.
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Dairgo
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Re: 2009 Vibe GT lunges during aggressive braking

Postby Dairgo » Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:35 pm

While it sucks, I agree, it sounds like it might be something to fix while parts are still around. I was recommended to another place, by the independent shop I called, that specializes in transmissions. I should have a quote from them tomorrow.

JohnnieMo
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Re: 2009 Vibe GT lunges during aggressive braking

Postby JohnnieMo » Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:33 pm

Wow that sucks for both of us. I'm surprised they jumped straight to the tranny and didn't think it could be the torque converter. This really chaps my (removed). I had mine at the dealer as the warranty ran out and it just didn't happen that day.

To me this is a safety issue, and one that should be fixed by the manufacturer no matter what. However it matters not what I think. I'll keep driving mine as is.

Thanks for doing the work and reporting back. If you elect to install the new transmission I'd love to hear if that fixes it.
2009 Pontiac Vibe GT

jolt
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Re: 2009 Vibe GT lunges during aggressive braking

Postby jolt » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:18 pm

When a technician takes your car for at test drive, with the proper scanner hooked up, they should be able to see the signal for the convertor lock up to the solenoid in the transmission valve body. As the car is coming to a stop, they should see the signal disengage. This would verify that the ECM has the proper inputs and output for the convertor lockup to happen. If that is working then the problem is in the transmission. If the signal from the ECM is staying on while braking and coming to a stop then you have a wiring, connection, input sensor problem.

When trying to find info about your transmission, you need to know what transmission you have. The model of the transmission will be something like U250E, U341E, etc.. and is stamped on the transmission case by the engine. Find that and at least the transmission tech will be more willing to talk to you about the problem in more detail and you can see how they react, if they know what you are talking about. Here is some info to read as to who rebuilds, where they get their parts and info from for rebuilding and updating transmissions. If you read the pdf magazine, and it does have an article about the U341 Toyota transmission in it, toward the back of the magazine are list of suppliers and companies that specialize in transmission. They may be able to help you or point you the right direction. The second link is to find shops in your area that are up to date on info about your transmission or have access to the info to help figure out your problem. I think if you start reading the tech magazine, you will have a better understanding why people are telling you to replace the transmission. Mechanics are paid by flat rate hours and if the mechanic is not knowledgeable about your model of transmission, they are going to loose money on the job no matter what happens so you can understand why the dealer told you to replace it.

http://www.automaticgearbox.biz/digest.pdf

https://www.trnw.net/shop_finder.php

It is also odd that you have no error code from the ECM. Codes differ with the model of the transmission but convertor lockup problems are find around codes P0740 and up.

Dairgo
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Re: 2009 Vibe GT lunges during aggressive braking

Postby Dairgo » Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:25 am

So... yeah...

between this transmission issue (costs running from a little under 2k to 4.5k, used transmission vs reman/new) and the potential to need to do something down the road about it burning oil, I elected to go with the nuclear option.

I traded my Vibe in and got a newer vehicle.

but to be more specific, Toyota narrowed it down to a mechanical issue with the valve body of the transmission. And for them to dig into that, it was going to start around $2.3k

JohnnieMo
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Re: 2009 Vibe GT lunges during aggressive braking

Postby JohnnieMo » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:29 pm

Sorry to see you go, but thanks for the info.

Mine has lasted this long and if nothing else, I've learned to brake slower and thus be a more smooth driver. I'll drive it in to the ground and then get an electric car :)
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302LVR
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Re: 2009 Vibe GT lunges during aggressive braking

Postby 302LVR » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:21 pm

I totally agree with JOLT's comment on this issue as most technicians, dealers, and transmission shops today would rather rebuild the whole transmission from scratch than to play the guessing game trying to figure out what is wrong with your vehicle and have the customer return several times for warranty work or because something is still acting up. I'll share an experience i had with my other vehicle, an 01' Ford Ranger which had similar issues lunging forward when i was coming to a stop or would shift harsh into gears while my O/D OFF light would flash. Sure enough i took the truck to a transmission specialists and he hooked up a computer to it which he claimed read transmission codes and not just engine codes. He found a code saying i had converter lockup issues and told me it was either i needed a torque converter, tcc solenoid, valve body issue or possibly just have the whole transmission rebuilt which would probably cure everything yet that was $1800-$2,000.

Naturally the DIY mechanic in me opted to troubleshoot myself starting with cheaper stuff first. I went ahead and changed new fluid, filter, tcc solenoid and valve body gasket in one shot and while the tranny did feel a bit smoother while driving and shifting, soon enough once the tranny got to normal operating temps it started shifting rough again. I had one more card to pull before calling it quits and rebuilding the whole tranny so i went ahead and ordered a refurbished torque converter from a known rebuilder and gave it a shot. In the end i spent about $450-500 on parts and labor since i have a friend with a shop and he performed the labor part for me. My rebuilt converter is going on 50,000+ miles since the rebuild and to this day everything is working fine and it cured all the other issues my truck had before.

The only thing i'm usually religious with is changing the fluid about once a year or every 15k-20k miles so the vehicle has fresh fluid and good lubrication. Hope this shines some light for some of you and try the cheaper route first as it might work. Remember when u change fluid you're not flushing out ALL the old fluid and leaving a small amount behind so maybe this helps some. I would also recommend to add an additive called INSTANT SHUDDER FIX made by LUBE-GARD and comes in a small 2oz. bottle. That additive is 5x concentrated supposedly and my truck has shifted great ever since i started using it. Good luck to all.

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cq358
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Re: 2009 Vibe GT lunges during aggressive braking

Postby cq358 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:31 pm

I got the same thing but I believe it is just injector dirty making un smooth fuel management mode transition. Put a bottle of concentrate fuel injector and drive your car aggressivly for 20 miles would help. Motormaster red concentrate fuel injector cleaner. I found that usually occurs in damp spring season when gasoline at da stn might have little bit more water in there


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