Poor Fuel Economy

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ecrosman
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Poor Fuel Economy

Post by ecrosman »

I have a 2009 Pontiac Vibe 2.4L Base FWD with 127,000 miles and love it except...I have noticed how bad the fuel economy is; 18 mpg city and 23 mpg highway. I have only had it for a couple years now and it has never improved. There are no slippages or any other noticeable problems (no check engine light). I did change the spark plugs but that made little to no difference. Any idea on the problem? Possibly O2 sensor? All answers welcome! Only part of the car I don't like and it is supposed to get ~26 mpg city and 32 mpg highway. Thank you!!
zbyers
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by zbyers »

Honestly, the biggest impact to fuel economy is the nut behind the wheel. :lol:

Outside of that, there are a LOT of factors into fuel economy. Tires, tire inflation, air filter, weight in the car, throttle input, dragging brakes, things on the roof causing drag, etc. Here's a decent list of things about how to maximize fuel economy..

https://www.consumerreports.org/fuel-ec ... onomy-now/

If you wanna go extreme and hypermile:

https://www.motherearthnews.com/green-t ... az10jjzraw
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ecrosman
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by ecrosman »

There are no roof racks and A/C only on 1. Window rarely open. Air filter recently changed. I have tried to follow different things to increase gas mileage, slow stop/start,etc. Didn't know if there was anything mechanical wrong with it.
zbyers
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by zbyers »

Perhaps you have one that JUST doesn't get that great of fuel economy. The 2.4L is notorious for burning oil. In the long run, burning oil will also decrease your fuel economy.
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Caretaker

Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by Caretaker »

zbyers wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:09 am In the long run, burning oil will also decrease your fuel economy.
This possibly is what is happening to me lately. While my oil consumption has actually slowed with the flat terrain, my gas mileage has gone down to the 26-27 mpg range lately; the lowest I've seen in this car's lifetime. While that is still within the margin for city driving or 80 mph driving or air conditioner always on driving, it has been very hard to get back to the normal 30 mpg weekly fill-ups that I experienced while living in the delta quadrant.
zbyers
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by zbyers »

Caretaker wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:01 am
zbyers wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:09 am In the long run, burning oil will also decrease your fuel economy.
This possibly is what is happening to me lately. While my oil consumption has actually slowed with the flat terrain, my gas mileage has gone down to the 26-27 mpg range lately; the lowest I've seen in this car's lifetime. While that is still within the margin for city driving or 80 mph driving or air conditioner always on driving, it has been very hard to get back to the normal 30 mpg weekly fill-ups that I experienced while living in the delta quadrant.
That's possible. My brothers 03 based would average 34+ ALWAYS. Once he started burning significant amounts of oil, he's lucky to even reach 30.
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Mark
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by Mark »

I've chased this problem on the 04 for years, and to some extent on the 05 now too. Some things I've found have helped:

Stick to Top Tier gas only.
Replace the air filter and clean the MAF on a regular basis, and disconnect the battery neg terminal for ~20 min when you do.
Keep the tires around 35-36psi and check them frequently.
Ease up on the skinny pedal. (probably the biggest difference)
'08 Base Stealth, '05 Base Satellite
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vibenvy
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by vibenvy »

We average 27-28 MPG with 50/50 driving in both our 2009 5-speed auto GTs.

I actually managed 40.311 MPG in mine with 100% highway driving going to the 2016 GenVibe Meet in Nashville. Cruise was set at 60. Hardly touched the brakes. AC off. Everyone's always ragging on the terrible fuel economy of the 2AZ-FE and I wanted to prove them all wrong!

The things I preach, and practice, are (in no particular order)...

1. Keep tires at 35 PSI
2. When accelerating, keep RPMs under 3000
3. Coast to a stop whenever possible (and safe to do so)
4. Use cruise control whenever possible (and save to do so)
5. Keep unnecessary weight out of the vehicle (don't drive around with a bunch of junk)
6. Keep up with maintenance
7. Use top tier fuel
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Bookworm
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by Bookworm »

I'll say a couple of things.

1) I have to drive with junk. I'm an IT consultant :)
2) There's not really such a thing as "Top Tier" fuel. Just use a name brand, and you'll get the same performance as every other name brand. "Bob's Gas Station" may use the same fuel as the Shell down the way - but you can't be sure about the tank maintenance. That's all the name does for you.

In fact, for places like Houston, all the gas is crap, due to the EPA punishing any place that produces the fuel that everyone else in the country wants, but NIMBY.
Jbenrod
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by Jbenrod »

Top Tier fuel retailers use a higher level of detergent additives compared to other retailers who are using the minimum EPA required detergent additives in order to help prevent the buildup of engine deposits.

In my market, Sam's Club gas prices are often 10cts/gallon less than other brands that are listed as "Top Tier". I've never seen Sam's listed as a Top Tier fuel, nor have I seen Sam's represent that the fuel they sale is equivalent to or meets any requirements for "Top Tier".

It is generally understood that most of the gasoline for any market comes from the same pipeline or storage tank. This gasoline is a commodity and meets any minimum requirements. The gasoline is transported to the station via tanker trucks that are usually carrying a bit over 8,000 gallons of fuel. So how does one tanker carry gasoline that is "Top Tire" and the next one not? Or the same driver and tanker could conceivable carry one load that is "Top Tier" and drop it at one station and circle back to the same loading rack and the next load would not be "Top Tier"?

At the loading rack that I was familiar with, there were what I will call much smaller satellite tanks adjacent to the loading area. These additive tanks were piped into the loading rack and contained the fuel additive. Major Brand X might have their own tank and Major Brand Y might have another tank etc. Both the additive equipment and product was owned separately by the respective major and would automatically be added "injected" into their fuel loads.

The invoice would either billed the fuel in gallons times the price and another line item for freight (transportation). The transportation charge varied by distance - usually a fixed cost for any destination inside the metro with the cost going higher for destinations outside of the metro - the farther distance in miles the more the transportation charge. Or for the majors, the fuel quantities were just recorded as an "exchange". No money changed hands by truck load but it was an inventory adjustment item. For example, I picked up so many thousand barrels of product at your terminal X and you picked up so many thousand barrels of product at my terminal Y (across the state or region) and we keep a running record each month of the balance. A terminal may ship by truck, pipeline, barge or all of the above - it made no difference; but the additive would only come into the picture for product trucked to a retail destination since you obviously don't run a barge down to the retail convenience store. :lol:

There was never a separate line item on the documents for any "additives" because each company took care of their own. (This is from my memory and years ago so some details may have changed but I suspect it's still pretty accurate)


https://www.consumerreports.org/car-mai ... tra-price/
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jolt
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by jolt »

Something that was not talked about is the amount of alcohol in with the gasoline. You are not just buying gasoline anymore but a mix of gasoline and alcohol. Since alcohol burns at roughly twice the rate of gasoline, you would get about half the mileage if you ran only alcohol. It use to be that in some areas, depending on the population density, there where different blends of fuel used throughout the year. The biggest difference was amount of alcohol mixed with the gasoline. The higher percentage of alcohol, the lower your gas mileage will be. That would account for the fuel mileage drops you seen at different times of the year. Now, all gasoline has alcohol in it all the time. It is just the amount of alcohol that can vary. Read the little yellow sticker at the gas pump that has changed in the last few years. ......up to 10% or ......up to 15% no fixed value here anymore so the mileage can change from tank to tank with just the fuel.

Also octane of the fuel is not how much energy the fuel contains. Ask yourself, how is it fuel prices are so low in the U.S. and so high in Europe? That gas prices are holding around the same levels while everything else has gone up in price. You are paying for the amount of energy you are buying. When you have less energy, you are going to burn more fuel to get the same energy output. Yes, the 2.4L engine in the Vibe will use more fuel then the 1.8L. Car maintenance and how you drive are very, very important to your fuel mileage. Also consider as the years go by and most see a drop in fuel mileage, the fuel itself also that has changed.
Bookworm
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by Bookworm »

I can guarantee that 'used to be' is 'still is'. Houston and Harris County get whacked BIG time by the EPA for being willing to have the distilleries that everyone else in the country depends on for petrochemicals. It's a NIMBY, so we'll punish you for being willing to have it.

Makes you wonder - what do they think would happen if all of the people being abused by the EPA just shut the plants down completely? The country would grind to a halt, and the EPA would STILL refuse to back off.
350kVibe
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by 350kVibe »

Just a whole lot of "ditto". 2009 GT 2.4, burning oil, poor fuel economy... Cheers. I've tried additives and a multitude of driving techniques and extra maintenance but the bottom line seems to be that the 30+ mpg range is for the 1.8L and those that don't exceed 60mph on the highway.
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Caretaker

Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by Caretaker »

Correct 350. My corolla engine LOVES going 80 mph. It is the sweet spot for the engine. Unfortunately that sweet tooth is like drinking cotton candy. My mpgs go down significantly at that speed.
Mark
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by Mark »

Bookworm wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:16 am
2) There's not really such a thing as "Top Tier" fuel. Just use a name brand, and you'll get the same performance as every other name brand. "Bob's Gas Station" may use the same fuel as the Shell down the way - but you can't be sure about the tank maintenance. That's all the name does for you.
This statement is just straight-up factually false. You're entitled to your own opinion, but a little bit of research would maybe help with your opinion being blatantly untrue.

Link

Top Tier Gas
Consumer Reports agrees: you're wrong
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Bookworm
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by Bookworm »

Mark wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:18 pm
Bookworm wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:16 am
2) There's not really such a thing as "Top Tier" fuel. Just use a name brand, and you'll get the same performance as every other name brand. "Bob's Gas Station" may use the same fuel as the Shell down the way - but you can't be sure about the tank maintenance. That's all the name does for you.
This statement is just straight-up factually false. You're entitled to your own opinion, but a little bit of research would maybe help with your opinion being blatantly untrue.

Link

Top Tier Gas
Consumer Reports agrees: you're wrong
You can have your opinion. I've watched the tankers fill up at the distribution facilities. Lots of names of gas stations on the tankers - not so much on the distribution facilities. I've talked with several owner/operators of facilities.

The major difference is the additives. That's _it_. There _are_ different refineries, and they service different distributors, but chances are if you go to a gas station in a geographical area, all of the smaller stations get their fuel from the same distributor. Stations with more 'name brand' (Shell) get theirs from a single distributor. There's been a lot of complaints about it over the years - the price fixing that the distributors do is what really sets the price at the gas station in certain areas. If a refinery happens to be owned by the same company that owns the name on the gas station, you're probably buying _their_ gas - unless they're not in the area. Then "their" gas comes from whatever refinery is nearby. (or distributor)

It's simple economics. It's not economical for JQPetrolum to ship from their Houston refinery to, say, Jackson, Mississippi, when there's a RSGasoline refinery just down the road on the coast.

Now, it might be that some additives are "better" than others, but the _fuel_ is the same. I've even had a Ford engineer tell me straight out that the vast majority of engines are built for 87 octane, and you'll get no benefit from higher octane. (The Smart FourTwo _requires_ premium) People that swear by higher octane aren't seeing the benefits of that - but possibly of extra additives. (higher octane WAS beneficial for older vehicles, because it helps with knock and ping, but computer controlled systems don't see those unless there's something really wrong)

When I've had problems with "Bad fuel" - it wasn't from the small shops. it was from the big name brands, but probably bad tank maintenance. Chevron and Texaco.
jolt
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by jolt »

Bookworm wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:34 am
The major difference is the additives. That's _it_.
And that is the difference between "Top Tier" and non-"Top Tier". The gasoline itself is the same but the cleaning additive, which are really important for GDI engines, are the difference. To say "Top Tier" fuel is the same as non-"Top Tier" is technically not correct because of the cleaning additive. As for running high octane fuel in a engine setup for 87 octane, it can make a slight difference in mileage because all the 87 octane fuel is mixed with alcohol. The most expensive fuel at the pump may or may-not have alcohol mixed with it. If the high octane fuel is also non-oxygenated then it does not have alcohol in it and you may get slightly more fuel mileage. The increased cost of the fuel will not justify the increase in mileage as the federal government subsidizes the cost of the alcohol making it cheaper. If the alcohol was not reduced in cost by the tax dollars, it would be cheaper to run the non-oxygenated fuel because the price of the two fuels would switched around, as alcohol cost more to produce, and the fuel mileage would be slightly better on the non-oxygenated.

On a side note: If you are racing in a class of car that restricts the air flow to the engine, you can gain power from the engine by running a mix of racing fuel and regular fuel because of the alcohol mixed in the fuel. It like a form of adding liquid oxygen to the fuel and if blended right can gain about 5-8 Hp from a 350 Hp engine. That is only on restrict air flow and if not restricted, you will have a loss of Hp if blending the fuel.
Mark
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by Mark »

It's not my "opinion", it's explained in the links I provided. Top Tier fuel contains detergent additives that engine manufacturers requested to improve the life and efficiency of their engines. No crap it's the same base gasoline. All the gasoline I buy here is produced in the same local Holly Frontier refinery five miles from my house. Exxon doesn't ship gas here from Houston, they add their own blend of additives to the same gas that Sam's, Walmart, Safeway and Gasomat get. Duh.

You seem to be fixated on "top tier" being some kind of performance thing. It's not. Read the CR report I linked to, you could learn something new.
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Bookworm
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by Bookworm »

Note - in places like Houston, all gasoline bought at service stations has ethanol. To buy ethanol free fuel, you have to drive about 30 miles outside of the city, and cross at least one county line. Even there, it's more expensive. There are a _few_ 'racing gas' stations, mostly near the docks.

to the best of my knowledge, it's a "may have up to 10%" from the state, and "Will have at least 10%" from the feds. (E10. There's also E15 and E85) It's part of the whole Clean Air Act, which is "Punish the petrochemical producers."

(mind you, I've never heard of anyone working for the EPA getting rid of their SUV's)
jolt
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by jolt »

Bookworm wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:14 pm It's part of the whole Clean Air Act, which is "Punish the petrochemical producers."

(mind you, I've never heard of anyone working for the EPA getting rid of their SUV's)
And I have never seen a petrochemical producer go broke or loose money so they are not being punished. They just pass the cost onto the consumer and use any reason they can to do it. This is getting off topic of poor fuel economy. I will also say that driving with cruise control can also cut into your fuel economy. If windy or hilly conditions while driving, I have lost up to 3 mpg with the cruise control on vs. driving with the cruise off.
Bookworm
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by Bookworm »

jolt wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:10 am
Bookworm wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:14 pm It's part of the whole Clean Air Act, which is "Punish the petrochemical producers."

(mind you, I've never heard of anyone working for the EPA getting rid of their SUV's)
And I have never seen a petrochemical producer go broke or loose money so they are not being punished. They just pass the cost onto the consumer and use any reason they can to do it. This is getting off topic of poor fuel economy. I will also say that driving with cruise control can also cut into your fuel economy. If windy or hilly conditions while driving, I have lost up to 3 mpg with the cruise control on vs. driving with the cruise off.
They classify the cities that host petrochemical plants as the producers to be punished.

I rarely use cruise control except on long flat stretches. I'd rather pay attention, especially in hills :)
350kVibe
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by 350kVibe »

"The only difference is the additives" :lol:
Indeed, fuel is fuel just as milk is milk, but both of them go bad once they're left to sit for too long, and what you add to fuel changes its effects as much as what you might add to milk, eg. Ovaltine vs. Chocolate flavored Ex-Lax. ;)

Every chemical added to fuel has the potential to alter factors such as combustibility, heat generated, residue, etc., which is often inevitably observed in equipment performance. This is not an opinion, this is a fact. It can be used to your benefit or ignored, but not disputed.
2009 Vibe GT
Caretaker

Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by Caretaker »

....and you never know how your engine will react to the additives until you try. My Vibe HATES Costco's Top Tier gas. It LOVES Sunoco however.
KingKrab65
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by KingKrab65 »

I think it is also about the corn subsidies that exists for the ethanol.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... us/602191/

Also, here in Charlotte, we get "Winter Mix" around the beginning of November. It drops my mileage through to around March when the "Summer Mix" comes back. Not sure what the differences in the mixes are, but there is a marked difference in all my vehicles performance.
2003 Base Vibe
350kVibe
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by 350kVibe »

The bottom line when it comes to mileage in the vibes is that it's not made well for high speed. It's not exactly aerodynamic, small wheels/tires don't coast smoothly like the bigger ones, and it's lightweight compared to other cars so the law of inertia isn't exactly on your side. Particularly in these cars, only 4 cylinders requires more fuel than 6 to keep it rolling at speeds over 55mph because of wind resistance, road traction, and inclines.

Great gas mileage is not guaranteed just because a car only has 4 cylinders, and disappointing fuel economy isn't always a sign of trouble.. just the necessity for lowered expectations. The 35 mpg hwy dream is not a common achievement for most vibes, particularly when local highway limits are 65+ mph.
Last edited by 350kVibe on Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
2009 Vibe GT
zbyers
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by zbyers »

350kVibe wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:14 amthe 35mpg hwy dream is not likely achievable in a vibe
We reguarly get 32mpg in our '07 Vibe. We have seen numbers of 35+, and have even been at 40mpg a couple times. It's all in how you drive, the maintenance, tires/tire wear, etc.
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350kVibe
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by 350kVibe »

zbyers wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:26 am
350kVibe wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:14 amthe 35mpg hwy dream is not likely achievable in a vibe
We reguarly get 32mpg in our '07 Vibe. We have seen numbers of 35+, and have even been at 40mpg a couple times. It's all in how you drive, the maintenance, tires/tire wear, etc.
Congrats, sir. I'm a bit jelly reading that. What are your average hwy mph, road conditions (hills, curves, straight, flat), and climate? Do you use any additives or have you changed any parts?
I hope that one sentence you quoted doesn't negate the rest of what I said... "Not likely" doesn't mean impossible, but I see how my narrow phrasing would trigger someone to debate. So, correction...

Great gas mileage is not guaranteed just because a car only has 4 cylinders, and disappointing fuel economy isn't always a sign of trouble.. just the necessity for lowered expectations. The 35 mpg hwy dream is not a common achievement for most vibes, particularly when local highway limits are 65+ mph.
2009 Vibe GT
zbyers
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by zbyers »

350kVibe wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:26 amWhat are your average hwy mph, road conditions (hills, curves, straight, flat), and climate? Do you use any additives or have you changed any parts?
Eh depends, for our commute, mostly 45-55mph single lane roads in the middle of nowhere. Lottsssssssssssss of hills and curves. Northwestern PA, so lots of different climate.

Car is stock. Only things I've done to it in the almost 7 years of ownership is repair rust, replace brakes, fluids, tires, and one strut. Biggest key to good fuel economy in these is driving like a grandma, with a set of good tires.
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Caretaker

Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by Caretaker »

I got 42 mpg when driving from DC to NYC at a constant 55 mph. It was the first time I had ever driven like that. Normally I'm 80-85 which this Corolla engine loves. I took the back roads of the Delmarva so as to stay off of I-95 and not make other drivers mad. The trip took forever but as I was not in any hurry to get to my destination, it was a fun test. My car is actually now running the best it ever has now that I'm not going up/down the hills of SoCal. My gas mileage hasn't improved all that much, but the car purrs along now and I'm not burning as much oil as I was the past 4 years. This Vibe definitely likes the heat, hates the cold and loves continuous flat views of the Gulf.
Vulcan
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by Vulcan »

I'm pleasantly surprised that, even with an exhaust leak and CEL on, my last fill-up showed 37mpg for a 2006 AWD. Previous fill-up was 33mpg. This is mostly country road driving, and I always get non-ethanol fuel.
2006 AWD, 207k
radioarno
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Re: Poor Fuel Economy

Post by radioarno »

32 mpg hwy mostly flat 55mph cruise control 2004 base vibe auto with CEL related to fuel filler neck and charcoal canister
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