Vehicle misfire (?) and hard starting

1.8-liter VVTL-i (2ZZ-GE) and VVT-i (1ZZ-FE) engine, transmission, exhaust, intake, and performance tuning discussions
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drglinski
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:56 am

Vehicle misfire (?) and hard starting

Post by drglinski »

Hello

Thanks for the acceptance into the group. This is my first post, so please bear with me.

I'm having some trouble with my 09 vibe that I was hoping someone could help me with. More specifically, it didn't want to start today. 30 degrees, garage kept, ran/started fine yesterday at similar temps. It turned over fine but didn't want to fire. Occasionally it would sputter and try to catch but wouldn't go. Let it sit on a battery charger for a few hours and played with the gas pedal for a while and it finally took off. I suspected fuel pump but it had a strong unburnt fuel smell. (replaced fuel pump within the last 3-4 years as well.)

More info:
-Car has 130K miles
-Battery is new within the last 5 years
-Occasionally it 'chugs' at idle in drive with your foot on the brake.

I took it to an auto parts store to see if they could load test the battery. All good. Alternator and starter checked out ok as well. I had them put a scan tool on it even though it didn't have a check engine light...it came back with a 'random engine misfire' code. I inquired into that and they said either plugs, coils or wires. REAL helpful.

Here is what my dilemma is. It's never had new plugs in it that I'm aware of, and I've had it since new. I looked into changing the plugs and although I trust my mechanical skills I feel like it's super easy to strip out the threads on those and damage the cylinder head. Sound right? Should I have a shop change the plugs? Am I on the right track? Can a better scan tool pin point if it's a plug, wire, coil etc any better than an auto parts place?

Thanks for all the help. I appreciate any insight so I don't just throw $$$$$$$$ and not solve problems.
jolt
Posts: 945
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:07 am
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota

Re: Vehicle misfire (?) and hard starting

Post by jolt »

drglinski wrote: It's never had new plugs in it that I'm aware of, and I've had it since new. I looked into changing the plugs and although I trust my mechanical skills I feel like it's super easy to strip out the threads on those and damage the cylinder head. Sound right?
The longer the plugs stay in, the higher the probability that the plugs will get fused to the cylinder head and strip the threads out when removed. The price of changing the plugs is very small compared to the cost of removing the heads to repair the damage to the threads in the cylinder head. It is all a gamble but the longer you wait, the higher the odds go in favor that it is going to cost you a lot. This can happen with all newer vehicles. You have aluminum heads and 100,000 mile steel spark plugs that can cause galvanic corrosion between the two dissimilar metals and fuse the threads together. I had a 2000 villager that I changed spark plugs in at 99,000 miles and it took me all weekend to do it with a lot of tools, penetrating fluid, working knowledge about the rusted / jammed threads, and just a ton of patience as the number six spark plug would not come out. I would never wait over 100,000 miles to change spark plugs on anything, it is not worth the money and down time of the car. I will also add that I am not a gambling person so you do as you like.

Note: It is best to replace spark plugs with the same brand of plug that the car came with. If the manufacture used Denso, replace with Denso. If it came with NGK, replace with NGK. There are small differences in each manufactures spark plugs that may or my not cause issues with the cars coils and other related items. The same goes for the coils too. The manufacture of the ignition system has designed these items to work together and it is best to keep the items the same for long life and use.

drglinski wrote: Can a better scan tool pin point if it's a plug, wire, coil etc any better than an auto parts place?
Short answer is no. A scan tool in general will only show the area that is causing problems and does not pin point what is actually wrong. Further diagnostic is needed by the repair person to find the actual cause of the problem. An example is scanner code P0300 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected : can be caused by; Open or short in engine wire, Connector connection, Vacuum hose connection, PCV hose, Injector, Fuel pressure, Mass air flow meter, Engine coolant temp. sensor, Compression pressure, Valve clearance, Valve timing, ECM, and more.......

https://www.engine-codes.com/p0300_toyota.html

https://www.autocodes.com/p0300_2000_toyota_camry.html

https://www.700r4transmissionhq.com/p03 ... a-Corolla/

You can try to change the plugs yourself if you have the proper tools, like a torque wrench and long spark plug socket. If to much force is required to remove the plugs, stop and take it to a shop. When the fuel pump was changed, was it just the bare pump that was changed or the whole pump assembly? The pump assembly contains more parts that are related to the fuel system like the fuel pressure relief valve, that is why I am asking. You make it sound like the problem could also be related to bad/leaky fuel injectors. First get all the maintenance items that you have been missing done to get up to date with those things, like the spark plugs. See your manual that came with the car for services that should have been done and at what mileage.
drglinski
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:56 am

Re: Vehicle misfire (?) and hard starting

Post by drglinski »

I replaced the entire fuel pump assembly.

Thanks for the reply. I'll be taking it to a shop.
hogdoctor
Posts: 80
Joined: Sun May 06, 2018 4:28 am

Re: Vehicle misfire (?) and hard starting

Post by hogdoctor »

A fresh set of spark plugs is definitely warranted. Turn them out a half turn and shoot some penetrant down around them and give it time to soak into the threads, then turn them out slowly. Normally they come out with no problems.
Zimm
Posts: 332
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:47 pm

Re: Vehicle misfire (?) and hard starting

Post by Zimm »

i recently changed the plugs for the first time on my '10 with 135,000 miles. i just took it nice and easy breaking them loose and it was not a big deal at all. just be aware that if you have the 1.8l, you're going to need some socket extensions to get down in there-about 9" iirc. and i'd recommend several smaller extensions cobbled together, not 1 big one. the trim from below the windshield gets in the way so you can't pull anything straight out/put it in. gotta do it in stages. PITA. but like a 30 minute job and i've only done 2 sets of plugs in my life. also, the socket for the plug was not a part of my "standard" set. found one in stock at o'rilley. the fit of the rubber boot inside was key. most are too short inside because our plugs are the same size as lawn mower plugs which are apparently shorter than auto plugs.
'10 Black w/1.8L AutoAir/PW/PL/PM
Zimm
Posts: 332
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:47 pm

Re: Vehicle misfire (?) and hard starting

Post by Zimm »

btw, if you hve an '09 1.8l, it came with Denso plugs. to piggyback on an earlier poster, it really does make a difference to use the same plugs. denso irridium long life 100,000 mile plugs. not the twin tip irridium ones which are only good for 50,000. fyi-you can usually get ACDelco plugs for half the price and they literally are denso plugs with denso stamped on them put into an ACDelco box.
'10 Black w/1.8L AutoAir/PW/PL/PM
2006
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:01 am

Re: Vehicle misfire (?) and hard starting

Post by 2006 »

A co-worker has over 600,000 km on his Vibe. He changes his spark plugs each fall (along with air filter and Cabin air filter). He only puts in the cheap cheap AC Delco (AC 41-629). Less than $15 for 4....in Canada. You get them for $2 or so each in the U.S. At least these are plugs for 03-08, not sure if they are the same for 09/10.

I just brought Vibe #2 in for a safety check yesterday, and decided to go the same route with spark plugs in both Vibes. Half and hour or so once a year you're done, and you shouldn't have to worry about problems with removing plugs as they are only in for one year.
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