Cold Start 'Death Rattle" Advice

1.8-liter VVTL-i (2ZZ-GE) and VVT-i (1ZZ-FE) engine, transmission, exhaust, intake, and performance tuning discussions
Post Reply
portally
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:12 pm

Cold Start 'Death Rattle" Advice

Post by portally »

Hi Folks,

My 2009 base Vibe as developed the cold start rattle related to the VVT-i that seems pretty common on this model. The car is out of warranty and I would have to pay for the repairs out of pocket.

I am wondering if there is any catastrophic risk of not replacing the VVT-i. Have any of you had this issue and not replaced the part?
star_deceiver
Posts: 5800
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:49 pm
Location: Airdrie, AB

Re: Cold Start 'Death Rattle" Advice

Post by star_deceiver »

That rattle/grind is starter related. Not disengaging properly.
2019 Ram 3500 4x4 CCSB srw 8HP75
2016 Ram 3500 4x4 RCLB Dually w/stick (traded in - 05/10/19)
2012 Chevy Silverado 1500 Cheyenne 4x4 (Traded in - 03/30/16)
2009 Vibe. (Traded in - 12/12/12)
Caretaker

Re: Cold Start 'Death Rattle" Advice

Post by Caretaker »

First of all, we get a lot of first time posters that seem more like spam, than honest questions. You are all over the place here and I'm calling you out. If this is sincere, give us some more details than a few sound bites. Your cryptic note sounds like it could be one of three things: a loose heat shield rattling upon startup, the winter climate/cold start grinding noise SD eluded too, as a result of the bendix gear inside the Denso starter failing, or you could be talking about the inherent noisy valves in the Corolla engine that sound like valve tappet for the first 2 miles of driving until motor oil gets spread around the engine properly. You can't expect any help unless you give us more information than the time it took me to type this response.
jolt
Posts: 945
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:07 am
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota

Re: Cold Start 'Death Rattle" Advice

Post by jolt »

If a part is not working properly, it will put more wear and tear on other parts in the system. Fix it or suffer ....... well the saying; you can pay me now or pay more later.
User avatar
samsonite
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:03 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Cold Start 'Death Rattle" Advice

Post by samsonite »

Death rattle? :lol: You have to tell us what is rattling. This post is is vague, no one knows what you're talking about
10vibe
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: Cold Start 'Death Rattle" Advice

Post by 10vibe »

2010 Vibe 1.8 auto, fwd, base, air, preferred package, cargo mgt, cargo cover, ultra white.
gtv237
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 6:21 pm

Re: Cold Start 'Death Rattle" Advice

Post by gtv237 »

READ ME

It is the timing controller on the intake side. Just about every 1.8l 2ZR-FE has this problem. It is commonly misdiagnosed as a starter or dry start. Depending on the angle the cam stops at and how long it sits the oil may drain out of the controller and will rattle until oil pressure reaches it again (usually within a second). It doesn't hurt anything, it's just really annoying. I'm not sure if they revised the design but once replaced I've never heard of anyone having the noise ever come back.
10vibe
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: Cold Start 'Death Rattle" Advice

Post by 10vibe »

Good info GTV237.
I'm lucky enough to have the trifecta of noises. At first when under 38 or so degrees Fahrenheit, I sometimes would get the bendex gear from the starter noise. seems to be happening more often at higher temperatures now. I also sometimes get what I believe is the VVTI Cam controller noise for a second or so. Also get the lifter noise until reaching normal operating temperatures. Sometimes I wonder if there is not a little piston slap too until warm. The valve train can sometimes be a little noisy on acceleration even at temp.

Run either Toyota Synthetic 0w-20 or Mobil 1 0w-20 extended performance or sometimes the green fuel economy one. Usually go 6-8k miles on oil changes. I might be using about four to eight ounces of oil between changes. Tough to tell at times. Worst dipstick tube placement ever. You only get one shot for a clean dipstick check. Any additional checks is just a smeary mess, trying to ascertain readings from both sides of the stick. Back is always really streaky and reading high, front down a smidgen at times. Around 60k on the odometer.
2010 Vibe 1.8 auto, fwd, base, air, preferred package, cargo mgt, cargo cover, ultra white.
Zimm
Posts: 332
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:47 pm

Re: Cold Start 'Death Rattle" Advice

Post by Zimm »

10vibe wrote:Good info GTV237.
Worst dipstick tube placement ever.

This is the most true statement ever!!! the dipstick in my '10 is utterly useless and not even good for a directional estimate of how the oil levels are. mine shows 3 distinct levels on the front and the back is just a mess.
'10 Black w/1.8L AutoAir/PW/PL/PM
Caretaker

Re: Cold Start 'Death Rattle" Advice

Post by Caretaker »

Yes, it is very hard to determine when it is at the "full" line. I do find it fairly easy to determine the level when it is down a quart and has been sitting overnight. Given the way these Corolla engines burn oil, I am often down to where I can determine the current level of oil.

GTV: GM replaced my timing gear actuator at no cost. A week later, they replaced the Denso starter which was the real cause of the noise. The new timing gear actuator also had no effect on the noisy Corolla engine tappet which is pronounced in colder climates, and diminishes slightly as the car travels past the first 2 miles. I've decided to solve the problem myself by moving to permanently warm climates. No more winters for my Vibe, and the engine is much quieter.
10vibe
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: Cold Start 'Death Rattle" Advice

Post by 10vibe »

Zimm, Caretaker,

Exactly! Best way to check oil is the first pull of the dipstick after it sits overnight. Where is the oil at when it is down a quart? Is it close to the first dimple mark? Is half a quart down more like in the middle of the two dimples? And the question of the century.....dimples up or down? Slides in easier with the dimple protrusions up for me. (keep the answers clean :mrgreen: :lol: )
**EDIT: My dimples are indeed down! Thanks Caretaker, I went and checked. Not quite Alzheimers, just sometimers.

As crazy as it sounds I've got a magnetic torpedo level that I sometimes put on the bottom of the door sill to see how level the car is and will coast or roll with the engine off to get more level just for the measurements.

When it comes to oil usage I might of been down 2/3's a quart or a little more in total after doing around a 10K oil change after a long trip across country and up and down mountains and 80mph speed limits in Texas. Hard to tell because I topped off a couple times.

If I let others do the oil change, it is usually at least an 1/8 of an inch or more past the second dimple. This could throw my oil usage estimates off a little since I only try to fill to the line. I have added about 8-10 ounces (little over quarter of quart) in total at around 7k on this oil change interval. Planning an oil change soon.

Again, it is a pain to try to add a little oil, then check to see where the level is at. Why something so simple has to be so difficult!
Last edited by 10vibe on Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
2010 Vibe 1.8 auto, fwd, base, air, preferred package, cargo mgt, cargo cover, ultra white.
Caretaker

Re: Cold Start 'Death Rattle" Advice

Post by Caretaker »

10vibe: I put the dipstick in dimples facing down; or in other words, the raised dimples are on the underside of the dipstick as I slide it in..... and in other words, I slide it in concave on the side facing me. While not scientific, I believe I am close to a quart down when the line is half way between the two dimple marks. I am often there at the 3000 mile period. I change my oil every 5000 miles with dinosaur oil.
Mark
Posts: 640
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:26 am
Location: Cheyenne, WY

Re: Cold Start 'Death Rattle" Advice

Post by Mark »

portally wrote:Hi Folks,

My 2009 base Vibe as developed the cold start rattle related to the VVT-i that seems pretty common on this model. The car is out of warranty and I would have to pay for the repairs out of pocket.

I am wondering if there is any catastrophic risk of not replacing the VVT-i. Have any of you had this issue and not replaced the part?

Your car is toast. Probably not worth more than the value of the gas in the tank at this point.

I can offer you a few hundred bucks just to take it off your hands, maybe I can recover it from the scrap yard. Best I can do, sorry.
'08 Base Stealth, '05 Base Satellite
10vibe
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: Cold Start 'Death Rattle" Advice

Post by 10vibe »

Caretaker wrote:10vibe: I put the dipstick in dimples facing down; or in other words,...
...

Indeed my dimples are DOWN! My memory is scary at times. Had to go out and check. Looks like I could add a few more ounces of oil too!
2010 Vibe 1.8 auto, fwd, base, air, preferred package, cargo mgt, cargo cover, ultra white.
Capt.Vibe
Posts: 160
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:18 am
Location: Montreal

Re: Cold Start 'Death Rattle" Advice

Post by Capt.Vibe »

Bumping this old thread. Does anyone know if all 2010 Vibes are affected by this or some of them? The TSB states the 2010s underwent a production change to fix the issue starting in early 2009. I have the VINs from Toyota but I can't seem to find the VINs for the Vibe. Not affected yet but a friends 2009 Matrix (bought on my recommendation no less so feeling a bit guilty) is having this issue. Anyone ever come across this info?


https://www.toyotaparts.metro-toyota.co ... 087-09.pdf


This TSB applies to ALL 2009 – 2010 Japan-built Corolla vehicles and to North American vehicles
produced BEFORE the Production Change Effective VINs shown below.


MODEL PLANT PRODUCTION CHANGE EFFECTIVE VIN

Corolla - NUMMI - 1NXBU4EE#AZ243260

Matrix - TMMC - 2T1BU4EE#AC257917

2T1KU4EE#AC257908
2010 Red Hot Metallic 1SA
Caretaker

Re: Cold Start 'Death Rattle" Advice

Post by Caretaker »

Sorry, no. I just have the TSB bulletin number written on my work order from when I got the camshaft actuator replaced in January 2013. The TSB appears to be: 09-06-01-015.
Also, confirm that any grinding noise you hear is coming from the actuator. Most of these cases, like mine, are the bendix gear failing inside the Denso starter. This is a much more common issue and if you have to pay the repair, replacing a starter is much easier and cheaper than digging into the timing gear actuator.
Capt.Vibe
Posts: 160
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:18 am
Location: Montreal

Re: Cold Start 'Death Rattle" Advice

Post by Capt.Vibe »

Caretaker wrote:Sorry, no. I just have the TSB bulletin number written on my work order from when I got the camshaft actuator replaced in January 2013. The TSB appears to be: 09-06-01-015.
Also, confirm that any grinding noise you hear is coming from the actuator. Most of these cases, like mine, are the bendix gear failing inside the Denso starter. This is a much more common issue and if you have to pay the repair, replacing a starter is much easier and cheaper than digging into the timing gear actuator.
Many thanks for that TSB. Confirmed it's the cam gear rattle as the starter motor looks like it was replaced by a previous owner at some point as the starter motor has the blue Denso sticker with the updated part number 28100-0T051 (19205422) for GM. Interesting to note the GM TSB has only the 2009 model listed and nothing on the 2010. Perhaps production of all 2010 Vibes started later then 2010 Matrix/Corolla and had the updated cam gear applied to all 2010 models as opposed to Toyota where the TSB lists a start and stop VINs for early production 2010. I ask this because here in QC it's a $1200 repair, with the car being 8.5 years old (on the road since Aug 2009) this is the least thing I want for my 2010 hence why I'm wondering if we can verify VIN numbers for Vibes.
2010 Red Hot Metallic 1SA
dantes
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:45 am

Re: Cold Start 'Death Rattle" Advice

Post by dantes »

my 2009 just started this rattle when it got cold. I tried the starter first still doing it and then changed the oil to a synthetic along with a new filter still not better. wonder how much this would cost at the dealer car only has 85000 miles on it and runs great
hogdoctor
Posts: 80
Joined: Sun May 06, 2018 4:28 am

Re: Cold Start 'Death Rattle" Advice

Post by hogdoctor »

I admit this sound generates some discomfort or embarassment, but from a mechanical standpoint... is it really a reliability or longevity problem? I can live with a lot for $1200.
dantes
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:45 am

Re: Cold Start 'Death Rattle" Advice

Post by dantes »

well that is the question is it a problem from a mechanical point of view or is it just a discomfort? I have read lots of stuff on this problem and a couple say that if it is not fixed it will break and your engine will be filled with little parts of metal that will ruin the engine and you will have to get a complete overhaul :o
dantes
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:45 am

Re: Cold Start 'Death Rattle" Advice

Post by dantes »

I finally got a reply from an engine builder in the area and he laughed at me and said drive it it will not hurt a thing just keep the oil and filter changed and it will last no need to replace anything
mvibe2006
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:23 pm

Re: Cold Start 'Death Rattle" Advice

Post by mvibe2006 »

I own a 2006 Pontiac Vibe which began making a rattling noise a few weeks ago every morning when I start the engine. It only happens in the morning when I leave for work. When I start the engine to go home at the end of the work day, it does not rattle. It sounds like loose ball bearings under the hood, and it only rattles when I’m turning the wheel and/or applying brakes as I back out of my driveway. After a few miles the rattling disappears, so it seems to be related to the engine temperature. After reading this thread, I thought that the rattling noise could be caused by (1) a loose heat shield, (2) the Bendix gear inside the starter, or (3) the VVTI Cam controller. I’ve driven the car onto blocks and crawled under it, but couldn’t find any obvious loose heat shield or panels. The fact that the noise is more pronounced when I’m turning the wheel or applying the brakes makes me skeptical about noise source #2 and #3. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Otherwise, I’ll just have to take my car to a mechanic and hope that he can solve my problem at a reasonable price.
Post Reply