water pump replacement, suggestions?

[KingTen91]

Doing some engine work and interested in your suggestions. 03 Pontiac vibe gt, stock motor ~190000 miles. I have a cel code showing PO420. I've read both that means a bad cat and also a bad air/fuel ratio. A few symptoms I'm noticing:
1: coolant level in the overflow tank in front of the radiator has been dropping since I got the car.
2: sludge all over the underside of the engine.
3: white smoke early in the mornings, moreso when I really get on it when I'm late for school.
4: friends have told me they smell coolant when I pull in their driveway.
5: really dirty air filter with broken clasps that holds down the upper part of the breather box.

I had the coolant system flushed and checked by firestone several months ago and they told me they found no leaks. Yet the coolant level keeps dropping, which had me thinking maybe it was leaking in the exhaust, giving me the bad cat code? I brought it back the other day and they told me they found a leak from the water pump.

I plan to Jack it up and throw some gunk on it to try and find exactly where the leak is. If it is the water pump, what do you guys think about this underdrive pulley from Mwr?

http://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/produ ... ts_id=1104" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Or this water pump?

http://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/produ ... cts_id=311" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can get the normal water pump from advance for $50, is it worth it to go for this one? Also can they work on our vibes 2zz-ge? Has anybody used either one?

Either way that air filters getting replaced. I don't imagine that the purolator pureone should be avoided for any reason. I was thinking about going ahead and replacing all the gaskets from head up, is there anything else I should grab while I'm there that's fiscally reasonable for this stage in a build?

Thanks

[Chiadog]

You don't mention any coolant leaking onto the ground. Sounds like it could be a head gasket leak to me. I would be hesitant to stick any money into an engine with 190K on it. If you decide it is a head gasket leak, try some AlumASeal powder, http://www.amazon.com/AlumAseal-ASBPI12 ... B000FW61M4

[KingTen91]

The shop told me the water pump for sure is leaking. I never see any puddles under the car. They said that makes sense since it would only be leaking while driving. I don't have that milkshake looking oil so I'm leaning away from the head gasket, unless where it's leaking isn't between the oil and coolant galleries.

I just bought a purolator pureone air filter so if it is just a bad air/fuel mixture I'm hoping that fixes the cel problem.

[gtv237]

A p0420 is most likely the converter. It basically means that the O2 sensor before the cat and after the cat are reading the same, meaning it's not doing its job. If you had an O2 sensor out of range it would throw an O2 code. If you had a lean or rich(A/F ratio) condition it would throw a code for that too. The fact that you only have a p0420 points to a catalytic converter. Not to mention you say you're losing coolant. If it's leaking internally, the the water passing the through the cat can certainly foul it

A head gasket can leak without the oil and coolant mixing. Oil or coolant could leak externally or into the combustion chamber. It definitely sounds like you need some work. I would run a compression test to see what's going on. You can rent a compression tester from autozone if you don't have one.

[KingTen91]

Ok, update on the cel. I threw in the pureone filter but checked the code again first and it showed a P0141 instead of the P0420... I guess the 420 got cycled out. So I erased the code and installed the filter. That was last night close to the time of my last post. Since then no code has returned. So I guess my cel code problem is solved, but that still leaves the issue of the level drop in my overflow tank. I'm going to try to get underneath in the next day or so and look around myself.
I'm thinking about just buying advance auto water pump for $50 and buying the mwr underdrive pulley, unless someone can tell me the advantages to gain from mwr's water pump?

[KingTen91]

Ok I'm going to be changing my water pump sometime this coming week. I decided on the advance auto water pump, mwrs pump (according to the rep on the phone abd if I understood correctly) just has a plastic impeller instead of a steel one. I guess it's lighter and can spin easier but I've heard these can explode under high rpms, so I'll just stick with steel.
I'm thinking while I'm there I'll go ahead and change my tensioner and serp belt, and possibly coolant as well. Right now I have ethylene glycol but someone was telling me that dexcool was supposed to be in it because it's an aluminum block? I guess it works better against aluminum? I was considering the timing belt but I'm only at 192k so I figured I'm good on that. Anyway can anyone point me in the direction of a decent thread/video on a how-to or give some advice. It seems pretty simple but still it would be appreciated and would prob save me time.
Also while I'm there, any thing I should go ahead and replace on top of what I'm already? Thanks.

[sideshowalan]

Don't use dexcool, only the Toyota long life coolant.
There is no timing belt, vibes use a chain that is good for the life of the car.

[KingTen91]

Yeah sorry, I meant chain, lol, but yeah I figured I was prob good. I've been going over Haynes repair manual for tips on what to expect and it shows some ways to test the guides and chain for stretching and such, so I might do that, but more than likely I won't fool with it. This summer I'm planning on pulling the engine and buying a head gasket set and I'll prob do it then. Again, from what people tell me about timing chains I doubt I have anything to worry about but I had a timing belt break on a Mitsubishi galant which is an interference engine and got stuck having to sell it for $400, so I get paranoid, lol

[KingTen91]

Ok, so I was looking on eBay and I can get this kit which includes the water pump, oil pump, chain, guides, sprockets, etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with my oil pump, but I guess if this is a legitimate purchase I could save it until I need it.
Does this look worth it? Is GMB a decent brand?

http://m.ebay.com/itm/261002766259?lpid=82&chn=ps" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[lannvouivre]

If you do your head gasket job, you'll need 10 new head bolts (stock stretch and lose clamping force after being used once), the new head gasket, the water inlet pipe gasket (maybe, it's steel so who knows), valve cover gasket, and intake manifold gasket.

You can do the HG without pulling the engine, but won't have much room to pull the timing cover as required. The engine is a paaaain to drop back in the top, so if you think you can avoid it, I'd recommend that. The CV axles are also hard to pull out sometimes because you have to overcome the retaining spring clips. Toyota's service manual recommends to pull them by putting a brass rod against one of the "ears" on the inboard axle bearing housings and hammering them out. What I did is put the trans in neutral try hammering from below on a long prybar, and then turn the axle a little if it wouldn't go and repeat. I had to use a heavy sledge because my choices were the sledge, a rubber mallet, and a tiny hammer, and even then had to pretty much hit it with all my tiny hobbit strength. I would also recommend replacing the axle seals as well because the CVs are such a pain; the seals need to be flush with the outside of the housings and not fully seated into the transmission. They are about $9 apiece if you buy the National brand, which is supposed to be good.

[Salsa Guy]

P0141 sounds like a bad rear 02 sensor. The P0420 will come and go for a long time before it stays on.

[gtv237]

Ok, so I was looking on eBay and I can get this kit which includes the water pump, oil pump, chain, guides, sprockets, etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with my oil pump, but I guess if this is a legitimate purchase I could save it until I need it.
Does this look worth it? Is GMB a decent brand?

http://m.ebay.com/itm/261002766259?lpid=82&chn=ps" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wouldn't worry too much about the chain. They don't break as much as they stretch and sometimes jump a tooth. Any time I do timing components I like to use OEM parts. I've had nightmarish happenings with aftermarket timing stuff. Had a tensioner break once 2000miles after the repair and ruined a newly rebuilt engine.

[KingTen91]

Ok thanks, I'll prob just pull it and measure it for stretching then. Btw how do you feel about Worldpac? Where I work they carry the timing chain and guides and sprocket by worldpac but it's $230. I can get it for $160+tax, and I guess this is assuming once I measure it that it even needs replaced. If I go that route then with the water pump it'd be $200+tax. Some older guys I work with say that at 192k the timing chain is well past the change point and I should do it. I've never done a timing belt job but I have done other stuff like a head gasket, engine swap, etc.
Also, thanks for the advice lannvouivre, I'm not too worried about the gaskets right now, I'll prob wait until this summer when I have more time. And yes the axles are a pain, lol. When I changed the clutch it was pretty aggravating getting it back in. The axle seal was also broke when I got the car from where the guy before me ripped it putting the axle back in. I just switched it when I did the clutch.
Salsa yeah I'm thinking it's the o2 sensor for that 141 but I've replaced them before on the same code and had it not fix the code, so I'm a little hesitant on dropping the $75 with no chance of returning it if it doesn't fix it.

[KingTen91]

And is there any reason to assume I'll need a new tensioner or pulley? Any spec to measure against?

[Salsa Guy]

Then I suspect your Cat is bad then or have a wiring issue with the O2.

On the Tensioner if your are going through all the work to replace the water pump, and you haven't replaced the Tensioner before, now is the time to do it, along with the belt. If it's not squeaking or making noise it maybe fine. Your option but a good suggestion.

[KingTen91]

Sorry man, I mistold you, I've not replaced it on this car yet, I meant my old car, a 97 cavalier. Had the same problem, replaced the O2 and still had the code. My rear seal started leaking after that and I said screw it and found this vibe. I had already replaced the head gasket, and then replaced the engine after I spun a rod bearing. I just got tired of sinking money and something else come up the next week.

[fisherguy2000]

Hey been lurking on this forum for over a year now but have to say it's great.

So I've got a gt 2003 with 246k km (Canadian, bought it with 133k), and I have the same problems. P0420 coming on and off (determined that putting cruise control on for prolonged times on the highway will trigger it), and just got an oil change which identified a water pump leak... But also a suggestion to replace the radiator. I confirmed the leak and am going to replace it, but was wondering why the rad is all of a sudden a problem as well. My thought was that rads are fairly bullet proof and shouldn't need the change.

Anyway, great forum and look forward to your ideas.

Mike

[GOF]

Hi Mike,

Did they say why the radiator should be replaced? Is it leaking, corroded, plugged? Some other issue?
.

[lannvouivre]

Hey been lurking on this forum for over a year now but have to say it's great.

So I've got a gt 2003 with 246k km (Canadian, bought it with 133k), and I have the same problems. P0420 coming on and off (determined that putting cruise control on for prolonged times on the highway will trigger it), and just got an oil change which identified a water pump leak... But also a suggestion to replace the radiator. I confirmed the leak and am going to replace it, but was wondering why the rad is all of a sudden a problem as well. My thought was that rads are fairly bullet proof and shouldn't need the change.

Anyway, great forum and look forward to your ideas.

Mike

I haven't heard of rad issues on these cars. Lube techs have to look for other issues so their manager doesn't whinge at them, so the rad may very well be fine. You could get an infrared temp gun and look for hot spots (caused by clogs) on the rad; I think any other issues would be quite obvious.

[GOF]

Usually when a section of the radiator is clogged you'll see cool spots. This is caused by the hot coolant NOT circulating through blocked tubes.