Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

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Caretaker

Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

Post by Caretaker »

Anyone having an issue with the 2nd gen timing gear? The note from GM is #09-06-01-015 and is for 2009 and 2010 Matrix and Vibe. As it degrades, you get a metal on metal (heat shield sound) at startup which lasts for only a second. I am convinced that the camshaft timing gear is also responsible for my valve tappet noise as well since the valve clearances can no longer be adjusted. I know it is a covered part under engine/powertrain, but wanted to know if anyone else had to have this fixed and what the outcome was?
star_deceiver
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Re: Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

Post by star_deceiver »

I'm waiting for the temp to drop below -20C before I take it into the dealer. Last time I talked to the service tech I had him look up the TSB on the comp. He said they had to hear the sound (meaning the car will sit there overnight and hopefully it'll make the sound in the morning) before they'll do the repair. So far in the past 2 weeks the cars only made the sound once...
2019 Ram 3500 4x4 CCSB srw 8HP75
2016 Ram 3500 4x4 RCLB Dually w/stick (traded in - 05/10/19)
2012 Chevy Silverado 1500 Cheyenne 4x4 (Traded in - 03/30/16)
2009 Vibe. (Traded in - 12/12/12)
Caretaker

Re: Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

Post by Caretaker »

yeah, I have found that one night in the cold may not be enough. I will turn it over to the dealer and ask them to let it sit for a full two mornings before starting it up. That should do it.
Also: have you had significant tappet noise as well? Since your gear is also exhibiting the symptoms, I wanted to know if anyone else thinks that the timing gear is causing the noisy valves?
star_deceiver
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Re: Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

Post by star_deceiver »

Valves sound fine to me. How many miles do you have now?
2019 Ram 3500 4x4 CCSB srw 8HP75
2016 Ram 3500 4x4 RCLB Dually w/stick (traded in - 05/10/19)
2012 Chevy Silverado 1500 Cheyenne 4x4 (Traded in - 03/30/16)
2009 Vibe. (Traded in - 12/12/12)
Caretaker

Re: Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

Post by Caretaker »

I have 63,000. The valves have been getting louder for the past year. Normally, they quiet down after two miles. As of late, they tend not to quiet down at all.
star_deceiver
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Re: Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

Post by star_deceiver »

Maybe try changing your brand of motor oil. I use Toyota 0w20, and have 148000kms.
2019 Ram 3500 4x4 CCSB srw 8HP75
2016 Ram 3500 4x4 RCLB Dually w/stick (traded in - 05/10/19)
2012 Chevy Silverado 1500 Cheyenne 4x4 (Traded in - 03/30/16)
2009 Vibe. (Traded in - 12/12/12)
Caretaker

Re: Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

Post by Caretaker »

Well, after five full days at the dealership (3 the first time, 2 this time), they finally got a good grinding noise upon cold start-up this morning. Both the actuator and timing chain are on order. I have also asked them to examine my water pump while they are poking around in the engine. I am having the Service Manager call his friend at Toyota to determine if my vehicle was on the "bad pump" list on the Toyota TSB. I also asked the Manager to let me know what the "discounted" price would be to install a water pump should he think it is the smart thing to do while it is all torn apart. Any thoughts on whether I should just go ahead and have the water pump put in given I'm at 63,000 miles?
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Chiadog
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Re: Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

Post by Chiadog »

If the water pump is on the "naughty" list :lol: , I'd replace it.
I'd be interested in seeing a few paragraphs comparing the 09 vibe to the 10 Elantra Touring!
Thanks,
chiadog
Caretaker

Re: Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

Post by Caretaker »

I'll post it on the Off Topic page right now. As for the water pump, does the genvibe community think I should replace it even if it is on the "nice list"? I don't have much frame of reference for replacing a water pump other than when I used to do it on Plymouth slant 6 engines when the belts needed replacing.
star_deceiver
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Re: Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

Post by star_deceiver »

If they've got it apart to do the timing chain, I'd have the water pump replaced as well (as well as any other convenient maintenance work that can be done). I've read the Toyota TSB on the water pump several times, and I can recall that the '09 Vibes had a TSB for it as well..... or at least I read about it on techlink.
2019 Ram 3500 4x4 CCSB srw 8HP75
2016 Ram 3500 4x4 RCLB Dually w/stick (traded in - 05/10/19)
2012 Chevy Silverado 1500 Cheyenne 4x4 (Traded in - 03/30/16)
2009 Vibe. (Traded in - 12/12/12)
Caretaker

Re: Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

Post by Caretaker »

OK, I got the car back tonight. It appears that they only replaced the timing gear actuator and not the chain. From my 6 mile ride back from the dealer, I noticed:

1. My idle is a bit higher. At a stop, it idles at around 950 instead of the 800 or so before. Is that too high? It is just below the 1000 rpm mark.
2. My valves seem to be much quieter. I will see how it sounds when I start it up tomorrow in the cold and see if it is noticeably different. I'm guessing it will be much quieter then as well. More later.

I have been getting 33 miles per gallon in suburban driving. I am anxious to see if my mileage gets torpedoed by the higher rpm.

As a side note, I documented my Elantra Touring's mileage today after filling up at Costco ($3.15). I calculated 28 mpgs in all suburban driving. That is outstanding, and is the first measurement I have done since I got the refurbished transmission installed. For a car that is EPA-ed at 23/30, I'm thrilled with 28 in/around town.
Caretaker

Re: Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

Post by Caretaker »

Ok, took the car out in the cold this morning. The idle was reading higher than normal for a normal thermostat reading, but settled back down on the trip back home. The valve ticks actually sound louder upon cold start up and drive away, almost like I'm driving a diesel. The noise does settle down after it has warmed up over 2 miles or so. So, the noise seems louder at first but sounds quieter than before once fully warmed up; not perfect, but quieter than when I took it in for the actuator.
I then popped the hood to see what the idiot mechanics at the dealership screwed up this time. There is always something, and as usual, I was not disappointed:
1. for some reason, they took the radiator overflow jug off. I was missing a #6 screw. Out of the three (normally) holding the jug on, I took a second one out to bring to the dealer to get another one. Fortunately, I found a similar/matching screw in my collection and simply installed it.
2. my fluid is now down at the low level in the overflow jug. When I unscrewed the main radiator cap, it seemed full; I just don't know why some of my Toyota pink fluid is missing.
3. I took the engine cover off to clean it off after the grease monkeys made a mess of it. After cleaning in/around the engine, I pulled the dip stick only to notice that I have new oil. I guess it makes sense that they have to drain all of my oil before doing any interior engine work. I'm wondering if they put a new paper filter in as well (ie: I was due for an oil change in 2,000 miles. I wonder if I'm good to go for another 5,000?
4. I noticed that my black plastic aprons underneath were missing two black push pins, the same two that I have replaced before with large red plastic wall anchors. You just hammer them in nice and tight and they do a better job than the less than snug black push pins. I'm wondering if the mechanic took mine out and forgot to replace them with two new black push pins?

So it appears by my work order that they did not put in a new timing chain nor a new water pump, although again, I am stumped as to why my overflow jug was removed and why I am missing some fluid.
lannvouivre
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Re: Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

Post by lannvouivre »

Ahhh, the wonders of dealerships.
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Caretaker

It's BAAAAACK

Post by Caretaker »

35 degrees here in the Delta Quadrant and my car makes the same grinding noise upon startup this morning (post timing gear actuator replacement). I have noticed that I get the noise more often when it is moist outside as well. Now I'll sound like Billy Crystal in Throw Mama from the Train when I go back to the dealership and report: "The night was moist........."
I can see it now; all the the Service Writers chanting in unison: "Owen loves his mama; Owen loves his mama."
X-cross!
I sure hope Toyota has not misdiagnosed this issue.
star_deceiver
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Re: Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

Post by star_deceiver »

Take the Toyota TSB with you and insist the replace the intake camshaft gear as theirs does, maybe even tell them to drive over to the nearest Toyota dealer and pick up the parts from them! http://www.empirepao.com/tsb/T-SB-0087-09.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'd also (tell them) suggest nicely that they replace all the cam phasers, chain runners, tensioner, and timing chain itself.
2019 Ram 3500 4x4 CCSB srw 8HP75
2016 Ram 3500 4x4 RCLB Dually w/stick (traded in - 05/10/19)
2012 Chevy Silverado 1500 Cheyenne 4x4 (Traded in - 03/30/16)
2009 Vibe. (Traded in - 12/12/12)
fltcoolcat
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Re: Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

Post by fltcoolcat »

Hi,
I would like to ask Caretaker if the sound you heard was at first like belt screeching. I have a 09 Vibe 1.8 M/T and I hear a screeching sound at start up for about a second or two. The sound is at random it could be in the morning or afternoon. Today I removed the belt and I could still hear the screeching sound. I think it is something inside the drive train.
Thank You,
Fltcoolcat
Caretaker

Re: Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

Post by Caretaker »

No, it is a metal on metal grinding noise. The actuator that GM put in did not solve the problem, so that wasn't the problem with these Corollas. It is the bendix gear in the starter malfunctioning. My dealership put in a Denso starter and the problem has been solved. Stand by and I'll try to find the you tube video of the bendix gear/starter noise.

OK, here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdR9_bRj6bo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
fltcoolcat
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Re: Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

Post by fltcoolcat »

Hi,
Thank you for your response. My sound does not sound like the one on the link. I found one on youtube that sounds exactly like it. What do you think is sounds like?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73xNtxOn0_Y" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thank you,
Fltcoolcat
Caretaker

Re: Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

Post by Caretaker »

Yep; definitely not the same thing. I am only guessing at this point. Reading over the posts on You Tube attached to the video would seem to indicate the noise is either the cam shaft timing gear actuator or an oil pump. Unfortunately I am not qualified to make an assessment. Sorry.
fltcoolcat
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Re: Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

Post by fltcoolcat »

Hi,
Thank you for your suggestion; this helps me eliminate some possibilities.
Thank you,
Fltcoolcat
Cam
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Re: Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

Post by Cam »

The bulleting describes it as a rattle-knock. To my ear, the sound is very similar to what a bad starter on ring gear sounds like only very brief.
It can easily be heard at the drive end of the camshaft. Mine developed the issue around 40k. cheers
jake75
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Re: Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

Post by jake75 »

My 5 yr drive train warranty is up in early Jan 2014 - I have only 28,000 miles on my '09 Vibe. I suppose if this happens after 8 years and 48,000 miles I will be S O L. These kinds of failures ought to be covered 100,000 mile or 5 years whichever comes last.
2009 Vibe 1.8L Carbon Gray AT Power Pkg 1/12/092003 Vibe 1.8L Neptune AT Mono Power Pkg 1/27/03 [sold 2/2/09]2007 T&C SWB 7/31/07 "Broke people stay broke by living like they're rich. Rich people stay rich by living like they're broke."
Caretaker

Re: Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

Post by Caretaker »

well if it is the bendix gear in the starter, I don't think it costs too much to have a new Denso replacement put in. The starter is right in front, under the intake manifold pipes, so it is easy to reach. Since I did not put it in myself, I can't comment on how hard the entire job is however.
SparkyYogi
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Re: Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

Post by SparkyYogi »

Re Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator Failure and Cold Start-up Rattle

I have A 2010 Pontiac Vibe that came off the line June 18, 2009 and it just recently started to make this brief rattling noise on start-up on cold mornings. It has 143,000 km on it, but it has been well maintained and is in otherwise great shape.
When I bought the car, it had 23,000 km on it. I generally like to do my own oil changes, but was confused by the fact that the manual specified the use of 5W30 motor oil while the oil filler cap showed that 0W20 and 5W20 were to be used. Unfortunately, I assumed that with engines being manufactured with closer tolerances, I would be best to do what the filler cap said and I used the 0W20 oil in winter and the 5W20 oil in the summer. Now that the car has a few miles on it, I think the 0W20 oil is too thin on cold mornings after the car has been sitting all night and because of the increased tolerances due to contraction of the metal parts in the upper camshaft timing gear area the oil is draining down leaving the area dry until the car starts and the oil begins to circulate. The fact that GM gave out conflicting information about which grade of oil to use in the first place, and hasn’t sent out an update clarifying which oil is to be used since, is I think negligence on their part. It would seem to me that they might have a legal obligation to extend their warranty and repair these problems without cost to the customer. To add insult to injury, the GM rep has now told me that they always use 5W30 oil whenever they do an oil change on the Vibe.
At any rate, I hope that I’ve caught the problem in time before a lot of damage has been done.
I have changed the oil and for good luck added an oil stabilizer to see what effect that has. So far the noise has gone away. Next oil change, I will refill with 5W30 again and hope for the best. I hope I'm not stuck with a costly repair.
Caretaker

Re: Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

Post by Caretaker »

Nah, I don't think 5w30 is going to ruin your engine; However, GM is full of gaping errors from the very pages of our owner's manual to top level managers' brains. You should be using 5w20 in the car, and if you want to go down to 0w20 you can. As for the actuator, I'm still siding with the noise being the Denso starter. If all these noises were timing gear actuator related, I'm guessing the noise would be continuous and not intermittent like the failing bendix gear inside the starter. That was the case with my Vibe, and it is beginning to happen on my Fit and AGAIN on my Vibe. Something is amiss with Denso starters I imagine.
SparkyYogi
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Re: Camshaft Timing Gear Actuator

Post by SparkyYogi »

I had to have the starter replaced last year. My noise is definitely not the starter. I remember the noise it made when it wasn't disengaging and this noise is definitely different. I really think it is the camshaft timing gear actuator allowing the oil to drain back down. At any rate I now have a dexos blend 5W30 oil in the car. It's been cold here (-15 deg Celsius/4 deg Fahrenheit) the last couple of nights and I haven't had the noise on start-up in the morning. Having looked at several videos on this subject, I must say how clever these devices are. Using the proper oil and keeping it clean has got to be pretty important in these hydraulic systems. Next winter I think I'll go with the 5W20 oil straght synthetic. Thanks
SpoarkyYogi
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