engine surging

[fss106]

'03 Vibe GT, 165k miles. 6 speed

Have noticed my engine revving up during acceleration with no response in actual acceleration. This is true in all gears... Like its missing. My CEL light has been off and on for 4 years but the last 3 times I had it checked it was always the CAT or O2 sensor code (P0420 i think) I replaced spark plugs 2 1/2 years ago.... Is it possible its the spark plugs or CAT, or is this a transmission failure? Any input is welcome. Thanks

[BlackbeardBen]

This sounds like it could be a slipping clutch.

Does it still accelerate slowly fine, but when you step on it to accelerate faster, does it "break free" and rev higher without the acceleration to match?

[fss106]

yes, i cannot accelerate quickly... i have to baby it up to full speed after a stop, but this will even happen on the highway sometimes when i have cruise control set.

[star_deceiver]

This sounds like it could be a slipping clutch.

Ding Ding Ding!!!

Get out your wallet, it's time to drop the tranny and replace the clutch!

[fss106]

ugh, whats that going to cost? is this a result of me driving it poorly? the car was a lease from '03-'06. i bought it used in '06 w/ 60k miles and have put 100k on it since then.

[sideshowalan]

That would be amazing if it's the original clutch. The 2zz engine was overpowered for the stock clutch and many people were replacing them under 100K miles.

[fss106]

so if i replace the clutch i shouldn't match the stock? any suggestions? is this a $1000 shop repair?

[star_deceiver]

Cost this guy $1300: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=39377&p=470496&hil ... ch#p470496" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So shop around.

[DVibe]

This is a common issue with the 03 GT. My clutch was replaced around 80000 or 90000 miles. This was when my dad owned the car. He drove very conservatively too. A neighbor hooked it up with a parts discount and advised on a better than stock clutch that would handle the 2zz better. http://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; may has some options for clutches you could look into. Im really unsure on the pricing though.

[fss106]

yeah, the estimates i'm getting are across the board, anywhere from $1100 to $2200. The $2200 estimate made sure to tell me he was including the master and the slave cylinder... what are those? and will i need them? He said without those his estimate is $800 cheaper.

[joatmon]

The clutch is activated by hydraulics, much like the brakes. When you step on the clutch pedal, it moves a piston in the master cylinder, pushing hydraulic fluid down a pipe. On the tranny, the fluid pressure in the pipe causes the slave cylinder to expand, pushing against the clutch fork, which compresses the springs on the pressure plate, relieving the clamping pressure of the clutch against the flywheel. If the slave cylinder wasn't releasing all the way, then that could cause the pressure plate to not firmly clamp the clutch disc, causing slippage and clutch wear. If the slave cylinder was not expanding enough, then the clutch wouldn't be fully disengaged when you step on the clutch pedal, again causing early clutch wear.

Normally I wouldn't expect there to be a need to replace the master and slave cylinders for a worn clutch. I don't know if the rash of premature GT clutch failures was related to the cylinders or not. However, you got 165K miles out of a original clutch, which is decent for a clutch, especially a Vibe GT, so if it were me I'd assume the cylinders were fine, attribute the slipping clutch to normal wear, and I wouldn't bother replacing the cylinders.

You would want the shop to check the flywheel and resurface it if needed. The majority of cost in a clutch job is labor, so you want to take care of what you can when the tranny is removed. Be sure to get a new throwout bearing as well.

[fss106]

Joatmon, thanks for the response. When I got home from work today I checked my clutch/brake reservoir and it is empty, or at least below the min. level. I couldn't see great because its dark so darn early now. I can go buy some dot 3 brake fluid, but my understanding is this won't fix anything, that I probably have a leak and it'll just leak out again. True? Is this what caused my clutch to slip? an empty reservoir?

Kind of pisses me off because less than a week ago I had the car in for an oil change and you think they would check my fluid levels.

[star_deceiver]

And empty reservoir would also be caused be worn out or leaking brakes. You may want to look into that as well.

Would it cause the clutch to slip? I'm not sure. But if you fill it up you may want to bleed the clutch line at the slave cylinder if you think air got in there.

More than likely though, your clutch has worn out with age. 160'XXX miles is very good life for an OE GT clutch!

[fss106]

had my clutch replaced. cost $1291. They were able to resurface the flywheel. Just throwing this last post out there as a reference for future users. the shop claimed the CEL was due to the clutch, but I have my doubts. 10 bucks says that light comes back on again in a week. time to start the clock on clutch #2.... if I can get to 300k miles i'll be thrilled.

[Flip-Side]

Just stay around 3k rpms or less during break-in. Stop and go is your friend, freeways should be avoided when possible, and absolutely no lift engagement unless you want to replace it again.

I am wishing i had gone with a stage 1 clutch now, but the standard exedy is decent in my eyes.

[fss106]

what is lift engagement?

[sideshowalan]

Lift is that kick the 2zz engine gives above 6K? RPMs. I can't explain it technically, but it accelerates faster and makes a loud screaming sound. Also I believe it only works when you use premium gas.

They're saying you should keep the RPMs down during the break in period, under 3K and not 6K.

[SeattleJeremy]

It's when Vtec kicks in YO!

But really, "Lift" is what happens when this engine is above 6000 rpm, it opens the intake and exhaust valves more and changes how long they are open. Here's a full explanation on wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VVTi#VVTL-i" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[fss106]

so not surprisingly the CEL came back on. its the P0420. i noticed the center of the muffler dripping the other day when i parked. maybe just moisture? is this something that will ultimately do damage to my car, or is this just a bad O2 sensor?

[fss106]

thats interesting stuff about the vtech, and the lift and stuff. i never knew i had that. i just bought the only used Vibe on the lot and it happened to be a GT. that being said, now that I know the clutches aren't designed to handle the engine i still dont know if i'll pull that out of the bag too often. not interested in dropping another $1200 on a new clutch again, if that day comes again it'll be time to go new car shopping.

[SeattleJeremy]

so not surprisingly the CEL came back on. its the P0420. i noticed the center of the muffler dripping the other day when i parked. maybe just moisture? is this something that will ultimately do damage to my car, or is this just a bad O2 sensor?

Time to take it to an exhaust shop. Moisture does not collect on the exhaust, but can collect in the exhaust. The engine is able to compress the humidity in the air in to water. This is totally normal, but can cause the piping to rust.
If water is coming from the exhaust it's likely leaking from a hole in the piping. Is the water coming out before the O2 sensor (the one next to the cat)? If so, then that will screw with the readings the O2 sensor is getting, throwing a code.

It's also possible the cat or the O2 sensor have gone bad.

[star_deceiver]

How much water? And where on the pipe is it leaking from?

Do you find the engine is running a little rough? How's the coolant level?

This was the first symptom of demise of the GF's old Sunfire... There was a small leak at the first exhaust flange at the manifold... then the leak grew bigger and the puddle at the flange and out the tailpipe ended up being around the size of a 8" pancake after idling for a few mins... Headgasket blew the next day. You may want to dig a little deeper into this.

All vehicles will produce a little moisture and drip out the back a little but there shouldn't be a puddle bigger then a quarter.

[Flip-Side]

thats interesting stuff about the vtech, and the lift and stuff. i never knew i had that. i just bought the only used Vibe on the lot and it happened to be a GT. that being said, now that I know the clutches aren't designed to handle the engine i still dont know if i'll pull that out of the bag too often. not interested in dropping another $1200 on a new clutch again, if that day comes again it'll be time to go new car shopping.

I said no lift engagement during break-in of a new clutch. You will find a new oem clutch will engage hard when you first start driving again. About 500-1000 miles of mixed driving beds the clutch in and conditions it with thermal cycling. Burning the clutch, racing it, or pushing way past 3k will not promote it to bed properly. It will in fact glaze, and then drive like crap for thousands of miles. Lift engagement is fine (i fully endorse it's use of awesomeness) when the clutch has smoothed out and the break-in period has passed.

Oh yeah, and if you have a used gt or xrs with well over 100k, replace your lift bolts with a set of new revision bolts. They are a pain to replace when they snap, and they are a cheap replacement if you know how to pull off your valve cover. If your lift engagement is soft, intermittent, or abscent, one or both are broken.

[fss106]

here's the puddle

here's the source

[fss106]

i should preface this by saying my commute to work is only about 1 or 2 minutes at 25mph. is it possible the exhaust is not heating up enough to evaporate the moisture? i just thought it was weird that it was dripping from the center of the muffler like that. i got to work about 2 hours ago and it was still dripping when i took those pictures 10 minutes ago.

[star_deceiver]

That's a lot for a two minute drive, IMO.

[BlackbeardBen]

thats interesting stuff about the vtech, and the lift and stuff. i never knew i had that. i just bought the only used Vibe on the lot and it happened to be a GT. that being said, now that I know the clutches aren't designed to handle the engine i still dont know if i'll pull that out of the bag too often. not interested in dropping another $1200 on a new clutch again, if that day comes again it'll be time to go new car shopping.

I said no lift engagement during break-in of a new clutch. You will find a new oem clutch will engage hard when you first start driving again. About 500-1000 miles of mixed driving beds the clutch in and conditions it with thermal cycling. Burning the clutch, racing it, or pushing way past 3k will not promote it to bed properly. It will in fact glaze, and then drive like (removed) for thousands of miles. Lift engagement is fine (i fully endorse it's use of awesomeness) when the clutch has smoothed out and the break-in period has passed.

Oh yeah, and if you have a used gt or xrs with well over 100k, replace your lift bolts with a set of new revision bolts. They are a pain to replace when they snap, and they are a cheap replacement if you know how to pull off your valve cover. If your lift engagement is soft, intermittent, or abscent, one or both are broken.

Could you explain the reason you say no lift or otherwise high rpms during break-in of a clutch? I don't mean launching starts.

Even an unbroken-in clutch has enough static friction to keep from slipping during engagement of lift. That means no heat generation and no wear of any kind on the clutch until you upshift - and if you let the revs match the shift shouldn't wear more than any normal shift either. Now, powershifting, on the other hand...

[Zvibe2004]

a oem spec clutch in a 2ZZ does have enough bite to drive easy when its new, but running it hard could cause it to slip some in the higher rpms, whch is really bad for a new, not broken in clutch. my advice is to drive it easy UNLESS YOU HAVE TO DRIVE HARD TO AVOID A WRECK untill the recommended clutch break in period is over, and even then take it easy untill the clutch feels like a regular, broken in one. THEN you can have a lil lead foot fun