'09' 2.4 starter bendix problem?

[leemur]

hey guys, on some colder, or just cool mornings I'm getting a tiny and quick grinding or fast rattle sound that only happens for a split second on the keyed turnover. It reminds me of the much harsher sound of a sticking bendix (starter gear return spring) of much loved past V-8's. I can't imagine what else it could be.
It's hard to locate it as you never know when it will happen in order to put someone out front with hood up to listen. Working on that part. It's not the sound of a failed starter turnover. It starts every time.
Anyway, has this happened to anyone else? As winter gets closer here in WI it will probably get worse. I'd say it has happened about 20 times in the last 10 months.
Thanks for your time.

[leemur]

Okay, no help there. Any idea what a new starter costs or what older year Camrys might have the same starter. This is a 2002 stlye motor right? Should be enough in junkyards by now.

[trb]

No idea on if it is the starter or not, but on http://www.car-part.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , there are quite a few used Vibe starters in WI costing from $45-60 each listed at several salvage yards. Nothing else listed as a cross reference, but on a Matrix search, it does show some Corolla models along with the Matrix. The same part # shows up for a remanufactured unit on my local parts place online for both Vibe and Matrix.

[vibedrivermatt]

Wow, I've had this problem on one of my cars before (not vibe)

changing the starter fixed it. I think your right with the bendix thingy. I guess its some kind of solinoid thats not engaging all the way. I've heard that sometimes starters can have this part repaired but I think in most cases its easier to go with a new starter. That cant be good for your flywheel anyway. When it happened to me I was worried one of the teeth might have broken off on the flywheel but, later on when a mechanic did a cluth job for that car, he reoported that the flywheel was fine.. and all the teeth were intact.

So did you replace the starter yet? Also, what kind of milage do you have? I have the same equipment on my car. Im wondering if I may have that same issue in the future.

[leemur]

I haven't changed the starter yet. It made the noise just twice 2 days ago, nothing for days before or later.
The sound is definately after the startup. Instantly after so it must be a case of not disengaging the flywheel gear quickly enough. My car is just the base 2.4 5 speed auto.

[leemur]

Hey, is that camshaft timing gear tsb stuff for the 1.8cc only.

Wondering if this is what is happening to me. now that we are geting low low temps here the grinding is more often. Only on cold starts.

Do you guys think maybe this is the trouble rather than a starter? My car now has 73,000 miles and over three years since purchase so I suppose it's my own dime no mater what huh?
Please give thoughts.

[star_deceiver]

It could be the cam phasers and timing gear... although I haven't seen anyone else with a 2.4 with that problem... yet... The 1.8 had the telltale 1 second grind upon startup (although GM and Toyota consider it a knock/rattle). That repair would be covered under the 100000mi powertrain warranty though.

[Caretaker]

While I am not a mechanic, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Initially, I would not believe that the identical engine parts such as a camshaft timing gear actuator would be located in the Camry and Corolla engines so someone smarter than I will have to verify. However, if your noise occurs IMMEDIATELY AFTER ignition has commenced (ie: you hear that the starter has done its job and a split FRACTION of a second later or as you hear the exhaust gases moving through the pipes, it sounds like a metallic heat shield rattling, I'm guessing it is the same issue as us Corolla Vibe members are experiencing with the 2009-2010 models. I have mine in for repairs as I type this, all covered by GM under the power-train warranty. My failing actuator started a little over a year ago (50,000 miles on the odometer) and would happen once a month. Possibly related, my valve tappet at cold start up and for the first 2 miles of operation, began getting louder as well. Over this year, I now get the actuator noise at least once a week, and normally when it is cold outside.

[leemur]

the sound is instantainious after starter and ignition. and it is a grind not a rattle,,rrrriiittt. I have tried to vid it but it was too warm before and couldn't catch it. Will try to vid again. I really thought it had to be starter but the coincidence of the sound at startup made me wonder. I doubt the starter is a powertrain issue. Can't afford dealer costs.

I'll have to drop in on them and see what might be covered.

[star_deceiver]

My Silverado warranty manual says that the starter isn't covered under the 100000mi powertrain warranty, so I can't see any other GM vehicle being covered either.

This is the only vid I have of the 1.8L startup grind. It's quite difficult to hear but it is there at the 0:31 sec mark. It's also, out of all the vids I tried to take of the startup grind, the only time it actually ground upon startup. Pain in the a$$ issue...

[Caretaker]

Yep, that's it. Call it what you want (grind/heat shield sounding rattle), that noise is not your starter. It is definitely the camshaft timing gear actuator and is covered by the 100,000 mile warranty. I should have mine back tomorrow at which point I can finally find out what parts they decided to put in.
Great video by the way.

[classyceta]

I also have been getting that sound on cold start ups. It does not happen all the time. It makes a quick "grinding" noise upon start up and then it's gone. I have 85k on my 09 GT. it starts up no problem except for that noise.

Did you get it fixed??

[Caretaker]

yep, see my posting in the camshaft actuator gear thread right next door

[leemur]

Called Dealer, the starter is covered under the 100,000 mile powertrain warrentee. Left it overnight and it made the sound. They ordered the starter and will install it free as soon as I can get the car back to them for service. WhooHoo!!

Two dealers verified the coverage because I first called the Dealer that sold me the car and they said It was covered and I just had to get it in to verify the sound. I chose to go to a Dealer less than a mile from my house (easier to leave overnight). They also verified the coverage.

I had finally gotten to hear the sound from in front of the car, hood open, and the grind sound was definately coming from the starter area.

[leemur]

Okay, it's fixed...for free. They put in the new starter under warrentee. Picked it up just now.

[classyceta]

Will there be any long term effect if it is not fixed??

[leemur]

I can't see it being good for the gear the starter meshes with. Over time it must wear on the teeth. Once the weather got cold mine was grinding more than not grinding on cold start ups.

I wouldn't wait if it is happenning to you. Plus you only have 15K to get it fixed. 100,000 mile warranty. It's 100% paid for.

[Caretaker]

Yes, but what exactly is IT? My timing gear actuator replacement did not solve the problem. Did your starter replacement solve your problem?
Is there any word out there on whether Toyota has figured this out? Is it the starter, actuator or something else? I'm about to drop mine off with the dealer for a week and let them start it every couple of days to replicate the noise again. Any insights would be welcome.

[cq358]

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/104-5 ... noise.html
This is a well known problem "the cold Zip noise" but it is normal. Bendix gear turns slower when starter disengages.
Only happen at -8F or lower.

[Caretaker]

I appreciate your post, but the link provides nothing more than two advertisements and four posts essentially complaining about their noise. There is no authoritative information regarding the cause of the cold start up noise. For a "well known" problem, Toyota still has bulletins out stating that it is the timing gear actuator. I had mine replaced and less than a week later had 6 episodes of the noise. Ironically, I turned my car back in for an entire week and wouldn't you know, they could not replicate the noise. I have not had another episode since those 6 post-repair incidents, nor do I expect to until next winter.

[cq358]

I appreciate your post, but the link provides nothing more than two advertisements and four posts essentially complaining about their noise. There is no authoritative information regarding the cause of the cold start up noise. For a "well known" problem, Toyota still has bulletins out stating that it is the timing gear actuator. I had mine replaced and less than a week later had 6 episodes of the noise. Ironically, I turned my car back in for an entire week and wouldn't you know, they could not replicate the noise. I have not had another episode since those 6 post-repair incidents, nor do I expect to until next winter.

I posted the wrong link.

Sorry about that

Here is the update one for your info.
http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/104- ... urn false;

The VVT-i actuator noise is different than the "ZIP" noise from the Starter during -8F with car parked outside cold start.
The starter noise is very high pitch and the actuator sounds like chain rubbing on bare metal
http://service.gm.com/video/VVT_rattle.wmv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... dR9_bRj6bo

[Caretaker]

cq, thanks so much for this post. The last link demonstrates my noise perfectly. So even after the dealership replaced my timing gear actuator, I still get the noise on occation. It was cold enough yesterday for the noise to happen at startup. A month ago, I left the car with the dealership for a whole week and they could not get it to make the noise. Nonetheless, I am going to send the link to the GM Rep I have been dealing with, since it is a perfect representation of what is happening to my car.

So I ask the board: what is this noise?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... dR9_bRj6bo

[Rayven01]

Sounds to me like the starter gear isn't disengaging properly once the key is released. That's the same sound you get when you try to "start" an already running engine. General Google search consensus on the issue says it's either the starter or ignition switch, with the switch more likely. If it happens more often if you jam the key harder into the start position when starting it's definitely the switch. Regardless of the cause it's a serious issue because it can damage your flywheel over time which is big bucks. Cheaper to replace starter AND ignition switch than the flywheel.

[lowincash]

I've had the chain rubbing on metal sound once in a while when I start the car on a cool morning (40-50F) and I think it started a couple of years ago. It will only happen during winter time and never heard it in the summer. Of course, when I brought the car to the dealer, the car was already warmed so I could not replicate the sound for them to hear. I get that noise but not as loud as in that video a couple posts up.

BTW, it's in the mid 50's right now and my car's been sitting over night, I bet if I start it now I'll get that sound

[leemur]

It's been fixed for 5+ weeks now and the sound never came back. There have been a couple times when it spun up so fast that it almost sounded like the grind but I'm sure it's just paranoia. The new starter spins up faster than the old one did. The repair sheet just said "internal failure" of starter.

[Caretaker]

Here's what the GM Customer Service office just wrote back to me:

I have contacted the dealership and they have advised me that when they had the vehicle it was in fact operating normally. It is difficult to pin point exactly what is the cause of the noise unless the dealership is able to hear it. I will be forwarding your case to a district specialist so that dealership management may get involved in the diagnosis process.

Thank you for the information from the website you visit however, this is not something we can use as a tool for diagnosis. Vehicles are repaired on a case by case basis. Your district specialist will be contacting you within the next 24-48 business hours.


So for my efforts (4 times the car has been taken to the dealership), I have a case number and now a District Specialist will come-a-callin'. Of course I know they can't use a posted video of a Corolla as evidence of my problem. However, if you want to know what is wrong with my car: THAT IS EXACTLY IT!! I just want this documented because the car will be out of 5yr/100,000 mile warranty come September and I don't expect to hear the noise again until next winter.

[Caretaker]

I handed my car over to the dealership for the 5th time. They can have it for the next 3 cold mornings. After that, no more. Should they give me the normal excuse, can anyone tell me what a starter costs on a 2009 Vibe?
I sent the You Tube link of the Corolla (exhibiting the same noise as my car) to the service writer. I also asked the service writer to tell his technician to consider looking at the bendix gear in the starter. I also informed him that my noise also occurs at a very muted level on less-than-cold first startups in the morning. You can hear a slight residual noise after the car has started. The noise appears to be the same, but only 1/100th as intense.
GM's customer service regional representatives have been useless. They talk like their talking to a child, not knowing my IQ is twice theirs. I started yelling at the doof once he failed to listen to me and understand that I have already left the car at the dealer four times, once for an entire week. I demanded that whatever repair is necessary come next winter when I expect the noise will return in earnest, that it be covered given that my 5/100 warranty will be expired at the end of the summer and my case has a year long history.

[Caretaker]

I feel like I'm talking to myself here..............
Well, what a surprise, the dealer did not hear any noise after having the car for two cold mornings; I give up. I did send my service writer the You Tube video of the exact noise my car experiences. He said his mechanics also thought that it sounded like a starter issue.
So, if I decide to just put in a starter and be done with it, my local mechanic said (without examining the car) that I would need to put in the OEM Denso starter which are normally pretty pricey. I went on to Rock Auto and found a Delco starter for $144. I checked Brandywine and their search engine turned up nothing. I really find it hard to believe that there isn't a wrecked '09-'10 Vibe out there with a starter just waiting to be claimed.
Can anyone tell me if:

1. the starter is normally covered under the 5 year/100,000 mile warranty?
2. Rock Auto's Delco starter is appropriate for the '09 Vibe, as their website states?

BTW: The grinding noise started a year ago. It happened twice a month on average, but is now up to 6 times per month. It will be interesting to see if the noise happens during the spring time/summer time as the part (whatever it is) begins to fail.

[star_deceiver]

Have you thought about having your starter rebuilt?

[Caretaker]

I hadn't considered it only because the part is only $144 and I cannot tell you whether the bendix gear (whatever the heck that is), the solenoid, armature bearings, or something else inside the housing is failing. I'll probably give Brandywine a call since I don't trust their on line search engine when it comes up with no results all the time. There's too many wrecked cars out there to come up with a negative answer all the time.

[Caretaker]

Well it was 71 degrees when I started my car up for the first time yesterday and the "starter" made the grinding noise again. So much for cold weather being the driving issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... dR9_bRj6bo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[leemur]

Hey Caretaker, that's the noise I had. The starter was covered by the 5 yr/100k miles warranty. 2 different dealers verified the starter coverage. Still no grind after all this time since repair.

I suggest you get that car to a different Dealer who gives a (hoot). They probably didn't try very hard to hear anything. Aweful hard to miss that sound. You need a dealer who wants to do warranty work, IE, smaller dealer.

When I left mine at the dealer I made sure they left it out in the cold. Always possible they aren't doing that.

Best wishes.

[Caretaker]

I took the car in to the dealer last night to have the special Toyota grease sprayed into the main window panel (Toyota recall). I wanted to leave it sitting overnight to give the dealer one more chance to hear the starter grind but with the weather warming up it was kind of a shot in the dark. Wouldn't you know it: it made the noise. The 8th time is the charm. The new starter is on order. They also said that my outer CV boots were leaking. I feel very lucky that they caught all this.

[Caretaker]

OK, I got my new starter put in today at no cost. I am confused however. When I checked under the car, the starter clearly is stamped Denso, not Delco. When I did the research on Rock Auto, there wasn't a Denso equivalent and the Delco starter that came with the car was the one I was getting from GM. But sure enough, a brand new Denso starter. It took seven times taking it into the dealer over the past year to get it replaced, but the deed is done.

[Rayven01]

90% of the "ACDelco" part numbers for the Vibe are just re-packaged Toyota (usually Denso) parts with a GM number on the packaging.

[thebidman]

I followed this forum from start to end. Glad to see others having the exact same issue. Given the last few posts it looked like the fix is replacing the starter. I bought a new starter off Rockauto and put it in. First couple of starts sounded good and quiet. Then a little extra noise for a week and now occasionally the real loud noise I was eventually getting with the old starter.

I just want to let anyone else visiting this forum to know that replacing the starter may not fix the problem. So I will soon begin the task of replacing the ignition switch.

- Disappointed

[jperiod]

I followed this forum from start to end. Glad to see others having the exact same issue. Given the last few posts it looked like the fix is replacing the starter. I bought a new starter off Rockauto and put it in. First couple of starts sounded good and quiet. Then a little extra noise for a week and now occasionally the real loud noise I was eventually getting with the old starter.

I just want to let anyone else visiting this forum to know that replacing the starter may not fix the problem. So I will soon begin the task of replacing the ignition switch.

- Disappointed

Were you able to eliminate your noise? I just discovered this and our newly purchased 2009 (117K miles) has this noise. We will be dropping it off next week at our mechanic, but I'd like to give them a heads up in case parts need to be ordered. I'm confused about the difference between the starter/ignition switch and the camshaft timing gear actuator. Which is the culprit of the noise that should be replaced?

[cq358]

I did develop a counter measure by do a double twist at the key to "free up" the stuck mechanism when i start my car lower than 35F. no zip noise .
Ridgeline also uses starter sourced by Denso
http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/foru ... 24804.html