New Clutch Install Nightmare - Epic Saga

[NPVibe]

Hello all. First post, I drive a 2010 GTI and this is re: my wife's 2003 Pontiac Vibe 5 spd. We are in our mid 30s and have owned nothing but manual cars. Clutch held up until around 90k miles and started slipping. She drove it for another 2k miles or so until the slipping got bad and we brought it to a local transmission shop here in L.A., Bernie's Transmission. They had a good reputation, good reviews etc. and were close to our house. So, had a new clutch disc, pressure plate, throwout bearing, resurfaced the flywheel: $845 all-in.

After the install, noticed some chatter and had to slip it more than usual to get going i.e. give it more gas than we should have to, and especially starting up an incline, got a burning smell. Smell wasn't the new disc breaking in, it persisted, so we brought it back in. Car just seemed to really bog down from an incline. Mind you, this problem never existed before, even when slipping really bad. So, they didn't ask any questions and they put another assembly in again under warranty. Refinished the flywheel, again. And the problem persisted.. chatter/shudder from 1st gear, especially up even the slightest incline and burning smell starting off in first or reverse on incline.

So now we are on the 2nd clutch assembly and I am at the end of my rope. We want to keep the car for a while because besides this issue, everything else is fine. I recently did a tune up myself: coils, spark plugs, PCV valve, tires, brake pads, shocks, etc. (yes, I wrench/DIY when I can) changed the oil, air filter, etc. New CC put in etc. So besides the clutch, the car will go another 50k easy. SO.. this time I took the car to the GM dealer. Told them the story, they drove it and the tech said that they would have replaced the flywheel, not resurfaced it, etc. etc. and that they would do the whole thing for $1600. Obviously thats not an option.

So we bring it back to Bernie's again, they are apologetic but perplexed. Theyve obviously done a million tranny jobs over the years and they seem to not know what to do. I'm getting furious by this point. So they say "ok, we can get the flywheel from GM for $400 and we'll do the install for FREE, plus throw in another clutch assembly OR, you can keep it as is and deal with the chatter and burning smell and we'll warranty the work a year. You can bring it back in a year to still get the same offer." They insist that the linkage is fine, the slave cylinder isn't leaking, etc. Who knows, I'm not a transmission expert.. So we left and said screw it, we'll see if we can live with it.

A month later, present day, we're totally fed up with it. I don't drive it much and granted, its a turd compared to my GTI, but clearly, something is not right. It chatters and shudders from a stop or up a hill, I've got to blip the throttle while clutch is in before easing out into first just to avoid shutter, and it still smells like its burning up on hills from a stop. When the car is moving 2-5th gears, it drives FINE. Around town though, etc. theres a lot of starting off in first and it basically drives and feels like total crap.

So, what the hell do we do? Bring it back and pay to have the flywheel put in along with yet another clutch assembly? They are basically saying they don't know what the problem is and they don't seem to think the new flywheel will make a difference. I honestly just want our $900 back so we can bring it to Aamco or something and get it redone. I'm at the end of my rope with this car.

Thanks in advance guys!! Sorry so long but this has been an epic repair saga.

[Flip-Side]

Honestly, that is a tough situation to be in and i understand your anger. Personally, i would have them install a new flywheel as it is possible they resurfaced it badly or past allowable tolerances. 1st gear is where the most torque is applied to the clutch, and slipping and stuttering certainly sounds like they messed the flywheel up.

Oh, and get you old flywheel back from them when they install the new one. Insist it up front. Take the old one to get checked for your reference.

[beemerphile1]

Sounds to me like the garage is reputable and doing everything they can to make you happy. Take it back, buy the flywheel, and get another free clutch.

You aren't likely to get your money back and aren't entitled to a refund. You are entitled to get the job done right and since the garage is willing to try again you are obliged to let them try.

[NPVibe]

Thanks guys. They are getting us the flywheel at wholesale from GM and the whole thing will be under 400 bucks. Im going down the right path right? We just moved to a bigger house, baby on the way etc and really would like to avoid another car payment for a while. 94k shouldnt be crazy high mileage but honestly even after tires, shocks and everything else we did, its still pretty rickety with rattles from hell. Lots of rattles coming from the hatch floor area etc... Projects.

[SeattleJeremy]

94k miles isn't very many for this car. Keep up with the normal maintenance and it should last 200+k.

As for the rattly hatch area, make sure everything is bolted down properly. The jack in my car was loose, and was making a bunch of noise, after extending the jack it was happy again.

[NPVibe]

Sounds like the plasic panels. Also get a bad rattle overhead in between the sunroof and rearview mirror.. Seems like id have to get into removing panels and stuff, which i can do, but its a drag. Spoke to the shop today and talked about ordering the flywheel. They said they saw no evidence of the slave leaking before so maybe the chatter is the flywheel...

[Flip-Side]

Thanks guys. They are getting us the flywheel at wholesale from GM and the whole thing will be under 400 bucks. Im going down the right path right? We just moved to a bigger house, baby on the way etc and really would like to avoid another car payment for a while. 94k shouldnt be crazy high mileage but honestly even after tires, shocks and everything else we did, its still pretty rickety with rattles from (removed). Lots of rattles coming from the hatch floor area etc... Projects.

If you have any questions about solving these issues, the forums are here to help. The Vibe is actually a great car, just getting to be an older platform. An 03 Vibe is not as new as a 2010 GTI. Ever driven a 2003 VW 1.8T GTI ? MAF sensor needed to be cleaned every 10-15k or I got CELs. Engine sludging and reliability problems gave me constant worry. Turbo fried due to oil sludge. Comparably, I would take the vibe... or the GTI VR6 option hands down. (What can I say, I love hatchbacks/wagons)

As a former, and current, 2003 owner I know there are a lot of rattles under the hatch. Buy some anti-fatigue mat from Harbor freight, or any place where you can get it in a roll. Place the material under all the accesories that rattle around on top of the spare tire cover. Place a large piece or several small pieces over them, and the spare tire cover.

After this...if you do not have a cargo area mat, use the same material or some carpet to make your own quick and cheap. I prefer anti-fatigue mat because of it's thickness, and it silenced my old vibe perfectly. I actually kept the old mat when I sold my 03 Vibe to use as a work mat on the garage floor. It then was transfered to my newly purchased 03 Matrix XRS.

My wife has a 2013 Kia and she can keep it. I also do not have the cash for 2 payments...and my home? Welcome to Detroit.

[NPVibe]

Yeah, but the FSI was frought with many problems that was supposedly fixed with the current 2.0 TSI... Although there is the inevitable carbon buildup inside the intake valves etc due to the design flaw in the pcv system ala blow by gasses etc.. Diy oil changes are $50 easy while dealer oil changes are $100 and fixing anything on my car will always cost more. But comparing the gti to the vibe is pretty apples and oranges and they are just different classes of cars. Im willing to pay more and do as much diy as possible because the car is so solid, refined and a blast to drive.

Bck on topic Thanks for the tip on the sound deadening material, ill check that out. If we're keeping it for a while longer i best get busy because as it is i dread driving the thing...

And to someones comment about 90k being 'soon' for the clutch to go, thats 90k of LA city driving. Thats also her not listening to me about rev matching and other methods to prolong clutch life... Interested to see how my oem clutch will hold up on the gti. I have 26k miles on it with 10k of those miles with an APR Stage 1 tune, making roughly 230hp/285lb ft of tq at the wheels...

[NPVibe]

spoke with the shop again today and they said the offer and 'deal' still applies: call next week and they'll order the flywheel from the GM dealer and we'll set up an appointment for middle of the month. it came down to all of us being in on a conference call with the head of the service dept. with one of their techs on the line basically saying to these guys that they probably shouldn't have resurfaced the flywheel in the first place but got a new one and now, all the chatter is most certainly because it was refinished again. they quoted them $285 for the flywheel, their price, and thats what we are paying. they are doing the install for free and getting the place they got the clutch from to warranty the old one so they can put in a whole new assembly as well. i'm praying this works out because the car is awful right now. really bogs down from a stop in 1st on even the slightest incline, youve got to gas it and slip it far too much to get moving and if you don't it chatters like crazy. horrid.

lot of people slag the dealer or places like Amco or whoever for being overpriced, crooked, etc. but going with the cheaper option mom and pop place has come back to haunt us, big time. in hindsight, i would have gladly paid top dollar at the GM dealer for the job to have been done right in the first place.

[Chiadog]

Hey NP,
I think you're being hard on the mom & pop shop. First, the new flywheel will correct the problem (my opinion). You will have a NEW clutch for approx. $1100 vs $1600 at the dealer. I realize this has been a huge hassle. But on the up-side, many "reputable" dealers/shops would have told you to "pound sand' after the first re-do. I had a worse clutch experience on a NEW car that wasn't fixed until the factory rep came in and yelled at the service manager "FIX THIS CAR!"
chiadog

[NPVibe]

If they are such a reputable and seasoned shop, how could a routine clutch job on a 2003 Vibe have been the job that stumped them? Its kind of inbelievable. They kept talking about how many tranny rebuilds theyve done and how they rebuilt a ZF auto tranny in a 7 series, yet the Vibe.... That one will go down as the job that had them scratching their heads. Ridiculous

[thebarber]

Which aftermarket clutch are you using? Have you tried the extended clutch slave cylinder pushrod? It sounds like you don't have Enough travel in you clutch to fully disengage

http://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/produ ... cts_id=717" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Flip-Side]

If they are such a reputable and seasoned shop, how could a routine clutch job on a 2003 Vibe have been the job that stumped them? Its kind of inbelievable. They kept talking about how many tranny rebuilds theyve done and how they rebuilt a ZF auto tranny in a 7 series, yet the Vibe.... That one will go down as the job that had them scratching their heads. Ridiculous

All i can say is most transmission shops do not have a machine to "turn" flywheels completely flat. Most of them take a air grinders with a disk and simply smooth the flywheel. I have never had good experience with this. I rarely touch flywheels when changing clutches which is risky, but i dont have a machinist i trust near me.

Bear in mind that the engine, trans, and clutch are all toyota. GM dealers are not the first place i go to. You can haggle with Toyota dealers on expensive parts and save tens or hundreds.

[thebarber]

just get a fidanza flywheel and a good aftermarket clutch (ACT)

[NPVibe]

Problem solved! They ordered the OEM flyhweel from Toyota via the GM dealer and put it in the other day. Charged us their wholesale price of $280 w/no labor charge. Also put in yet another clutch assembly and finally, finally it drives right again. No shutter from take off, no chatter, etc. Feels solid. So, all in, $1200 but after all the time it took to get these geniuses to do it right, I would have just done it at the dealer and had it done right the first time. I have the old flywheel. Its got some hot spots, etc. and doesn't seem totally even when run your finger along the rim.. Anyway, finally, it is done.

[Flip-Side]

I am glad it worked out for you! See, this is exactly why I do not touch the flywheel unless it is turned by a machinest or I replace it completely.

If you can tell the old one is that uneven, just by feel, it is definately wrong. Just remember to go easy on it for a 500 mile break in period. Stop and go is your friend, as long as you can keep it from burning, and will speed the process up. Avoid freeways if possible, and keep the rpms 3k or less. This will ensure it is bedded properly and prevent glazing.

[maaadtrip]

Just stumbled upon this thread - Wow!

I'm glad it worked out (in the end) for you. Any talk of transmission issues and I get a little nervous - my 6 spd that I bought 6 months / 20k km ago feels like it's got water for fluid, but it works - which makes me hesitant to change out the fluid and possibly muck it up...

[Flip-Side]

The 6 speed toyota c60 is fairly solid at stock power levels. If gears begin to grind, or shifting is sluggish in cold weather i suggest changing the gear oil. I went with the very highly recommended Redline MT-90. Shifting did become smoother, and performance when cold is a night and day improvement.