water methanol injection?

[vibedrivermatt]

Hey I was wondering if anyone has ever used a water methanol injection kit with thier vibes. Forgive me because I haven't done a ton of research on the subject yet. I was thinking of a snow performance kit to use with my 2.4l. 09. Is this really a cheap safe way to gain 40hp?

[BlueCrush]

The water/meth kits will not give you 40hp. You may see a couple hp increase but that would be about it. They are mainly used with forced induction systems that generate a lot of heat to help keep the engine cooler and increase it's longevity. Not worth it for N/A engines.

[vibedrivermatt]

Yeah I see I was off with that 40hp number but, I still think this is worth discussion. Don't people use these systems is N/A pick-ups? Could it be usefull with some supporting mods? Like a fuel managment system and intake and exhaust upgrades? Now its no longer cheap but.edit:I see the MAF sensor is a prob.. guess this idea doesn't work..well any way I could get a 40hp increase would be great.. that would bring the 2.4 up to around 200hp.. Thats the number Im after.. I just dont want to add a big exhuast and make the car sound obnoxious..

[wyatt89]

It's pretty worthless on an n/a car. All it'll do is make your iat's go down a little bit and keep your valves nice and clean. You don't have to have "big" exhaust or loud exhaust to have a more performance oriented one. They make a few high flow quiet mufflers if that's what you are after. I don't see you hitting 200whp unless you were either boosted or you upped the compression, bored it, cammed, headers, exhaust, intake, etc.

[AKLGT]

you CANNOT just run your car with a meth/alc injection kit unless you TUNE YOUR CAR!!!! Cannot stress how important engine management is when doing something like this. And as others mentioned, there is little to no benefit for your Vibe. If I add a kit onto my STI, with proper tuning, then yes, I'd probably see 30 whp gain, but that's on forced induction AND a tune, not on a small NA engine without a tune. Don't waste your money.If you want to get your car to 200 WHP, you HAVE to upgrade the entire exhaust system, from intake, manifold/headers, piping all the way to the back, port/polish everything and you'd STILL need to tune your car. Just on that, I still doubt it'd give you 40 whp, maybe 20 whp at best. Only way for you to get to 200 at the wheels is to go F/I.

[4azdmunky]

Yes you can use it in your vibe, I had had one for about 3 years. I started when the car was N/A and didnt notice any improvement in HP. It did help when I finally installed the SC and had the e-manage tuned by MAC Autosports. However it is not a 40hp increase. Part of that might be because I'm not using BoostJuice, Im using windshield washer fluid.As for the MAF, its not a problem, inject down stream, about 6-8 inches away from your throttle body.The only real problem I had with it is magnuson claimed that the injection kit wore off the impeller coating on my SC. Which I still claim BS on since after paying them $780, and driving over 40K miles with a injection kit, the coating has not worn off my repaired impellers

[vibedrivermatt]

wow. well at least someone not a naysayer. I was looking for an easy way to get 40hp. What about using a piggyback ecu controller to help with tuning the water methanol kit? Im not sure if theres even one manufactured for the 09 2.4 vibe. Really 40hp seems a modest amount to try to gain from the 2.4. Im now considering a nitrous system. Its not legal in the state I live in but, who cares. I can easily hide the bottle. I feel this is a sure fire way to get another 40 hp. cheapest too. Id just do that, some kind of exhaust upgrade, and a drop in toyota filter. Guess I have alot of homework to do to figure that all out though...I thought I heard from someone that every stock engine is able to handle a 40 or 60hp increase safely without any other changes or build up being made to the engine.or maybe thats a 40 or 60 shot of nitrous?

[AKLGT]

again, gaining 40 hp on an NA engine is not easy. You really have to go some kind of forced induction to see any real gains. slapping on bolt ons are not going to do it, especially if you are going for wheel horse power (which is what really matters).and those of us who've been there and done that are NOT trying to be naysayers, we're speaking from experience. If you wanted performance, you should have bought a different car. the 09+ Vibe GT's are just a badge only, the engine really isn't much of an upgrade. To get real hp and tq out of the Vibe, you MUST go F/I. tuning an NA 4 banger will only net you about 5-10 (highest) whp. It's not a V8 or F/I where it will make a big difference. Sure it will help, but you're still not going to see 40 to the wheels.

[vibedrivermatt]

Quote, originally posted by AKLGT »If you wanted performance, you should have bought a different car.Well I wasn't going for performance. I bought a vibe because thats what i wanted. Now I just wanna make it go more. Im really tired of people saying that this tuning this car is a waste because that not what is was designed for.. Please refrain from adding anyting unless you can tell me how to make it go faster... Im also still not doing F/I...

[wyatt89]

If you are dead set against fi and want 40hp, go with cams, intake, headers, exhaust, and if you want to spend a lot on it, have it bored with higher compression pistons. Like AKLGT said, getting a port and polish will help too. She is being reasonable, N/a 4 bangers don't make a whole lot of power unless you either go f/i or spend a crapload of money on them.

[vibedrivermatt]

Yes I could buy all that stuff but, it is wayyy too expensive. Im kinda sold on going the nitrous route and skipping all that. bam 40hp!!...just what Im after. Id just do an exhaust upgrade to help with this but, theres nothing really out yet for the 09's. I hope they make stuff for the corolla/matrix. As far as air intake. I don't like the one i've seen some people using. I just want a drop in toyota filter. The vibes intake is actually already kinda like a CIA..it has piping that goes all the down into the front fender..Im not sure if older vibes are the same..

[wyatt89]

Nitrous is a good way for the gains you are looking for, that engine should do a 50 shot nice and safe. I thought you were looking to get 200hp all the time, that's why everyone was telling you fi. Nitrous is great if you are just looking to have fun occasionally. Make sure you get it tuned when you have it installed. You don't need to melt a piston with a serious dry shot.

[4azdmunky]

Ive been curious about NOS as well. monkeywrenchracing.com has a kit that is reasonable.

[dragon64]

Quote, originally posted by vibedrivermatt »Yeah I see I was off with that 40hp number but, I still think this is worth discussion. Don't people use these systems is N/A pick-ups? Could it be usefull with some supporting mods? Like a fuel managment system and intake and exhaust upgrades? Now its no longer cheap but.edit:I see the MAF sensor is a prob.. guess this idea doesn't work..well any way I could get a 40hp increase would be great.. that would bring the 2.4 up to around 200hp.. Thats the number Im after.. I just dont want to add a big exhuast and make the car sound obnoxious..Water/ meth injection is nothing new with high performance engines. It was commonly used by Messerschmitt and Junker in the late '30s and later by the English and American manufactures. It is not a power adder in itself and function best with either a carbureted or mechanically fuel injected high compression engines for knock control. Due to the cooling effect of the water, the engines can run at much higher cylinder pressures without detonating, creating more power. These days digital electronic fuel injected and knock sensors have all but eliminated the need for external knock controls like water injector in a N/A engine. It is still used today to control abnormal combustion chamber events in F/I engines and higher than stock boost pressures. In effect all the water/meth injected in the combustion chamber does is retarded the burn of fuel and creates steam that lowers combustion temperatures. Why it works to increase power in a F/I engine is due to the ability to increase boost pressure without having to decrease the mechanical compression ratio across the board while controlling knock and combustion temps to a safe level at higher boost pressure without have to radically retarding timing. These days with a stock EFI engine the best expected result you could expect is reducing peak combustion temperature and resultant NOx formation in the exhaust, reducing tailpipe emissions. The other possibility would actually be slight power loss due to steam in the cylinder displacing fuel and air without an mechanical increase in combustion chamber pressure (Eg: increased comp ratio or F/I) retarding the complete burn of fuel. Actually a larger exhaust can cause a power loss compared to a properly sized exhaust for the displacement of the engine. Also a chamberd muffler can actually flow more that a straight thru glass pack and make less noise at the same time. Unfortunately the right size and and if you can't see through are a hard sell after people have been conditioned for years that bigger and straighter is better. To get 40HP is going to take a lot more that bolt on parts unless you go to a power adder such as NOS or F/I. To gain HP from you stock engine will require shifting the peak torque RPM higher up the power band by changing cams lift, duration and lobe angle displacement and a corresponding increase in compression.

[AKLGT]

Quote, originally posted by vibedrivermatt »Well I wasn't going for performance. I bought a vibe because thats what i wanted. Now I just wanna make it go more. Im really tired of people saying that this tuning this car is a waste because that not what is was designed for.. Please refrain from adding anyting unless you can tell me how to make it go faster... Im also still not doing F/I...stating the obvious is all I am doing. Look at my post count and when I joined. don't think you're the first person who wanted more performance out of their Vibe. Guess what, I had 2 Vibes, one 03 GT and an 04 base Vibe. Both were chipped with intakes and the base Vibe had an exhaust. THEY ARE NOT PERFORMANCE VEHICLES. period. We tried, and unless you want to drop a lot of money to make your car into something it wasn't designed for, you need to get a different car (which we did and many others who also looked for performance minded cars). We even tracked our 04, drag raced twice and autocrossed for a year.The Vibe is a great vehicle, no doubt. What it is not is a sports car. There are a few members who have spent the money to add F/I, but even a the Supercharger won't give you impressive numbers. If you want to live your life a quarter mile at a time, then sure, go with NOS set up as that should get you your 40 hp you so want. So far, I've only seen one Vibe/Trix get into the 12's and that was some guy in PR (where they all have the fastest cars no matter what it is) with a turbo. I've already told you what you need to do to make your car go faster. I'm sorry it's not what you want to hear, but once you accept the fact it's not a sports car, you will enjoy it more.

[vibedrivermatt]

Ahhhh there you go again!! spewing off information that is of no use to me.. I already know the vibe is not a performance car. You said somthing about porting and polishing heads and buying lots of stuff, nothing about nitrous. I figrued that part out on my own. Im not going to try to explain why I want to hop up the vibe alittle, only say that I want to. Im not going for fast quarter mile times and really doubt a car with 200bhp is going to impress. Im also not going to try to do anything stupid like street racing. My goal here is to just improve the vibe some to make it more fun without spending a lot of cash..

[AKLGT]

LOL. what are you, 16 or something?? Do the research and you'll find the basic set up to add more OOMPH to your little Vibe will be:Cold Air Intake (CAI) ($100-200 depending on quality or new or used)Exhaust - catback exhaust (CBE). I recommend Magnaflow for the exhaust, nice sound and have proven (with pre-09) to be the most effective for performance. ($300-500 depending on vendor, shipping, or availability)porting/polishing headers. Making your car breathe better will give you better performance. There are several places that will port, polish and ceramic coat parts like Grimmspeed (not sure on Vibe parts, but I'm sure they can do it) maybe a local vendor there. You're in NY, there's a lot of performance shops and machine shops. Call around and see if anyone can do this for you and for how much. Even wrapping them to help keep the heat insulated will help. Engine Management- not too much out there yet for the 09, maybe a Unichip or Greddy Emanage, but tuning the car for your mods will always net better results. You can't just add what the box says for your bolt on and that's what you get. There are a lot of little things that will add up and make a difference. Research it. I don't recommend adding NOS unless you actually track your car. That power band isn't available all the time. From your first post, it sounds like you want power accessible to you at any given moment, not when you're on a straight line and push a button. I've tracked my last 4 cars, on the straight, twisties and non-pavement. I can tell you with the exception of drag racing, NOS won't do much for you. But that's my opinion and it's your car, so do what you will. Once you figure out your performance route, then I highly recommend you do something about the crap suspension and brakes on the car. That in itself will improve your handling and thus make your cornering and spirited drives more enjoyable.Front and rear sway bars, endlinks (if they make them for the Vibe), strut tower bar/brace, better tires, better brakes (hawk or dba pads), maybe even coilovers (but those are gonna be spendy). Also, look to invest in a better clutch (if you have MT) or an upgraded torque converter or valve body (AT). There's a place in NJ called IPT that does some very very good work on import transmissions. Good luck in figuring out what you want to do. Remember, you've got an 09, so you may be waiting a little while before they start coming out with the aftermarket parts/accessories. Plus, just like we found 6 yrs ago when we bought ours, it's a Vibe scene, they don't make much unfortunately.

[northvibe]

for people wanting to mod the 09 2.4l engine you may want to see what the scion tC people are doing. I still wonder why no one ive seen has tried to get the tC SC on a 2.4 vibe...Seeing 200whp in a NA vibe would require it to almost be built. If you see what monkey wrench racing has done.. you'd be looking to build it and put cams in.

[vibedrivermatt]

Quote, originally posted by northvibe »for people wanting to mod the 09 2.4l engine you may want to see what the scion tC people are doing. I still wonder why no one ive seen has tried to get the tC SC on a 2.4 vibe...Well I've seen people on the TC fourms using this DC sports header that fit thier 2.4.. Id have to match part numbers on stock headers to see if this can go on the vibe but..Do you guys think this part is pointless.. Im mean it attaches to the stock exhaust. What the hell is this thing supposed to do? and.. thanks AKLGT for the helpful info. Im actually 27 I just like to act like a 16 year old.. or maybe 10.

[kevera]

You should listen grasshoppa,that's how you learn.You ask some odd questions for a guy who knows a guy who knows everything.BTW...people are using headers on the 2.4,can you guess which one.

[AKLGT]

again, headers will open up the air restriction in the engine. more air to breathe means more power. It will change the sound of your engine however, which is partly why I have not yet gone with a header set up myself (even though I've swapped out a ported and larger exhaust manifold cross over pipe). Get some air free flowing through the engine and exhaust and though it won't get your 40 hp, it will certainly give you a bigger kick in the pants. Plus, keep in mind, the Vibe is only rated at 160 hp now, so even 10 hp increase is a substantial gain.

[vibedrivermatt]

Quote, originally posted by kevera »BTW...people are using headers on the 2.4,can you guess which one.hmmmmm? Well I've searched wiki here's my guess..third gen RAV 4 headers? that car makes 166hp with the 2AZ-FEor scion tc headers, same engine 161hpthese are my guesses besides the aftermarket DC header.

[northvibe]

the differences could be tuning between the cars as well since the rav needs more power as its most likely heavier. How big is the exhaust piping on that car? 2"? 1.5? If the stock exhaust piping was 2" then id just leave it, thats big enough for a na. unless you start going wild with cams and heavy tune etc then a 2.5. But seriously look into a ported throttle body, intake, ported or after market exhaust/intake manifolds. Is the intake manifold metal or plastic on the 2.4?

[vibedrivermatt]

Yeah I have no idea if the RAV or scion have different headers really.. Just guessing maybe they could.. Although I think its less likely with the scion..the intake manifold appears to be plastic on the 2.4..The exhaust is about 2" but I don't think its exact. The piece in front of the muffler gets slightly larger in diameter.Sure Id like to put in a nice cold air intake.. but there isn't a nice one out yet. I could fab something...or more likely get help with that. Im wary of these things though. The last thing I want is to drive through a big puddle and suck a bunch of water into my engine. I also understand that these cone filters just don't filter as well as stock, or drop in filters. I bought an Apexi filter for my other car, maybe there's a way to fab one of these into a CIA on the vibe..I hope that engine management comes out for the vibe..There is a unichip for the 2009 tC. I think these cars ECU's might be different but, I don't know. Im trying to find out from them if it can be used on the vibe..Here's an idea, I'll just get a chevy ecotech, the turbo one and put that in the vibe..huh?I have no doubt chevy owners who have this engine are talking about the same sort of thing we are.. Stock hp is just never enough..

[Sublimewind]

Quote, originally posted by vibedrivermatt »Well I wasn't going for performance. I bought a vibe because thats what i wanted. Now I just wanna make it go more. Im really tired of people saying that this tuning this car is a waste because that not what is was designed for.. Please refrain from adding anyting unless you can tell me how to make it go faster... Im also still not doing F/I... Tuning the Vibe is a waste bro, it's not designed for it... lolYou can't achieve what you want reliably and cheaply.. as everyone has already said.. and as they have said, expectations out of a NA motor aren't great.. it's why FI is so popular.. my lil'2.0L in my Subie is probably puttin 300hp to the ground.. It's got all the supporting mods though, fuel pump, injectors, bigger turbo, huge FMIC, and upgraded engine management.. Please add nawzz to your car... I'd like to see how long it lasts... but once you do, then you'll need the SRI or CAI, along with the exhaust... Stepping up to a header and larger exhaust will likely net a loss in power.. People love to put big exhausts on small motors... What they don't realize is that they'll likely lose most of the low end torque... Sure, you'll breathe better at the top end, but top end doesn't move a car... you get more out of the low end.. All this talk of the 1zz and 2zz in other cars, that's all well and good, but just because they share the same motor, doesn't mean the layout is the same in any way... all sorts of differences could be found i'm sure.. So, really for what you want, Nitrous is the answer.. you'll still be paying 5-700$ to get in the game, but you'll be happy... the car, well that's a different story, you bought a mini-SUV and you wanna play with the big dogs.. The ones here that have gone FI, well, they are driving ticking time-bombs... Most will run fair, but there are already people popping the stock motors, because they weren't designed for it.. Then again, anyone, including myself is driving a time-bomb if they've modded without regard.. If you do a big mod, you have to do the supporting mods to make things copacetic... You might run out of fuel pressure and/or flow with the stock pump, trying to feed a nitrous system... you do that and it's bye-bye pistons, it'll burn right through them on a run lean situation... fun stuff

[vibedrivermatt]

Id like to say that all of these things are just ideas at this point.. I'm not sure if there are even tuner shops in NY that will help with a nitrous system actually. Looks like the first thing Im gonna do is the piggyback ECU controller.. Unichip makes one for the 09 tC, so Im trying to find out from them if it can be used in the vibe/trix? There's also this blitz throttle controller thing that's supposed to improve drive-by-wire throttle delay, might look more into that... After that who knows? Nitrous just sounds like a fun idea though.. If i had it, it wouldn't get used often, it'd only be for special times...like a little magic happy button that could get pushed every once in a while.. but in not very realistic any time soon... I guess you guys might be right about having to go F/I...I'd try to turbo it..if I could. In order to do this I have to find out what differences there are between my vibes 2az-fe and a scion tC's 2004, 2005 year 2az-fe..

[AKLGT]

as I said previously, you've got an 09. not a huge market for a/m performance parts for the car, so you may be waiting awhile before something comes out specific for your car. otherwise, you're gonna have to do universal and go custom fitting for everything else. and that means $$$. no cheap or easy way to get hp to the crank much less to the wheels.

[wyatt89]

Quote, originally posted by AKLGT »as I said previously, you've got an 09. not a huge market for a/m performance parts for the car, so you may be waiting awhile before something comes out specific for your car. otherwise, you're gonna have to do universal and go custom fitting for everything else. and that means $$$. no cheap or easy way to get hp to the crank much less to the wheels.You might as well stop posting as everything you say in this thread is the same. He isn't going to take any advice. I gave up since he wont see any amount of reason and it's a waste of my time.

[vibedrivermatt]

I know... I know. Im actually taking everyone's advice even if it sound like Im not. Im just kidding around a lot really. Thanks for your suggestions everybody. I have some stuff to go on here. So from what you all said it looks like the only way you can increase the hp any significant amount is to do nitrous injection or F/I. and even this could be tricky and/or expensive and problematic. I've recently read somewhere that these engines seem to have problems with detonation at even low boost levels.... but.. I want you all to rest assured that if I ever win the lottery, one of the things that would be on my to do list, would be to try to turn my vibe into something like a front wheel drive rally car. That way if the car blows up no problem! I could just get a new vibe! or a bimmer..and put vibe badges on it! Sure might never happen. but I can always dream.

[DRYfrosty04]

This post is stressful haha