hydrogen kit for the vibe

[Raivis]

new product from my web dealer. sounds like it could work http://www.mimousa.com/home.as...=3495

[joholste]

awful lot of money for it thoughstill kinda tempting

[Kamikaze]

Yeah, kind of expensive... If you got 30% better MPG.. and let's say you got 30mpg... that means you would get about 39mpg...at that increase it would take you 62.5 fill ups to pay for it that would be about 31,687.5 miles... that would take me about 3 years before I would make any money off that.. and that is IF i continually get 9 more MPG than previously for 3 staright years...Pretty nice setup for the money, but I couldn't justify spending that much... If I had an expendable income maybe I would buy it to play around with it... but if I had a expendable income I wouldn't care what gas cost.

[prathman]

Let's look at some of their claimed numbers. 20+ liters of hydrogen per hour is less than one mole, or 2 grams of hydrogen. Now hydrogen has about three times the energy density per mass of gasoline, so that's about equivalent to 6 grams (one fifth of an ounce) of gasoline. So each hour this gadget is generating hydrogen with an energy content of less than 0.002 gallons of gasoline. And of course it's not doing that without some cost since it's draining power (4 A) from your alternator which makes it harder for the engine to turn the pulley and therefore will need to burn a little more gasoline. The power required to split the water and make the hydrogen is guaranteed by thermodynamic laws to be greater than what you can get out later by burning the hydrogen.The company cites the Honda hydrogen-powered car, but that's a completely different situation. That car runs entirely on hydrogen and the hydrogen is produced far more efficiently using utility company electricity.

[BlueCrush]

Quote, originally posted by prathman »Let's look at some of their claimed numbers. 20+ liters of hydrogen per hour is less than one mole, or 2 grams of hydrogen. Now hydrogen has about three times the energy density per mass of gasoline, so that's about equivalent to 6 grams (one fifth of an ounce) of gasoline. So each hour this gadget is generating hydrogen with an energy content of less than 0.002 gallons of gasoline. And of course it's not doing that without some cost since it's draining power (4 A) from your alternator which makes it harder for the engine to turn the pulley and therefore will need to burn a little more gasoline. The power required to split the water and make the hydrogen is guaranteed by thermodynamic laws to be greater than what you can get out later by burning the hydrogen.The company cites the Honda hydrogen-powered car, but that's a completely different situation. That car runs entirely on hydrogen and the hydrogen is produced far more efficiently using utility company electricity.No Habla? Speaka Engrish!

[AKLGT]

I will currently be running a test on the GMS Hydro 4000, it's a bit more money than this unit, however the amount of driving that I do plus I have to use Premium gas, will pay for itself within a year, especially if I saw 30%. Most systems will claim a 20% - 60% increase depending on amperage or other factors. I haven't posted about this here only because this test will be on my 05 Legacy GT Turbocharged car vs on a 4 cyl NA car. So, hold onto your money and wait for a month while I finish my testing of the above mentioned unit. For those who will say it won't work and continue to cite the laws of thermodynamics, these systems are not saying your car will burn or replace gasoline with Hydrogen, but to use it in the cylinders in addition to the gasoline to burn cleaner, hotter and more efficiently. You are still burning fuel, just not all gasoline. I know of 3 individuals personally who have installed a kit of some kind (Home Made mostly) and have been seeing a decent increase in fuel, especially around town. This is what has peaked my interest because of how much city driving I do, at $4.599/G and filling up the car every 2-3 days. The way I calculate it, at $4.599/G, even at an increase of 5 mpg per fill up when I avg 20 mpg and about 11 G = 5 mpg / $4.559 x 11 G = $12.064 Savings per tank of gas per fill up. If I were to fill up every 3 days (avg for me), that's 121.66 times per year currently. $12.064 x 121.66 days of fuel = $1,467.71 of fuel that I would not be spending. Even if only 3 mpg increase, that is still $880.63 savings for me. And that's only if gas prices stay the same and do not rise. So, you can see, for someone like myself who must drive 80% of the time for business, or commute, or otherwise, this cost savings will far outweigh the actual cost of the hardware (provided that it does work). So, don't spend your money just yet, wait until I have all my testing done (hopefully by the end of the month or sooner). If my findings show a good enough increase, then you will have to figure out how many miles and how much you drive to see if it'd be worth it.

[HellBlazer]

These DIY hydrogen kits are all smoke and mirrors... Like Prathman said- they use examples of how well hydrogen works by using cars that are strictly designed around the hydrogen concept. It takes alot of energy to creat a usable amount of hydrogen- most aftermarket alternators wouldnt even be able to make enough, let alone stock alternators and generators. The cost involved vs. the gain realized makes them useless. Sure they increase your mileage, maybe 1% or less. 30%, I doubt it. Its just like snake oil and those Slick 50 commercials- benefiting off people's desire to save money

[AKLGT]

what I have found in my research thus far (the past 2-3 weeks now), for the people who quickly say it doesn't work or cannot work due to the laws of thermodynamics, how many of these people have tried this type of system, know someone personally who they can confirm information with (physically do this, not just take their word for it), or have any hands on experience involving a Hydrogen kit on a vehicle other than what they read about or see online or in a blog? So far, I have not had one actual person who has told me this will not work actually have first hand experience with it, while I have 3 very good personal friends who have and tell me that it does work and works fairly well. Granted, I understand the laws of thermodynamics, however it doesn't take that much power to create Hydrogen or Brown's Gas and when you really think about it (which I have and have had my techs at the dealer whom one is an automotive engineer and the other is actually a genius - yes, even has 2 IQ tests to prove it) giving me lessons on how this actually does work, just not in the way that most people assume. They also know it will make your car run a little richer, however we can tune my car for that and data log it during this experiment. I haven't found much real information online regarding these kinds of systems in the mainstream, however as prices continue to rise, I'm sure you will hear more and more talk about them. This experiment/project if you will, is more about getting real facts and real numbers verse my friend's "I'm seeing a good 7 mpg gain on our 93 Toyota V6 Previa."

[Raivis]

oh by the way the price is $718 but i can get it for $520 plus shipping. there are other kits too

[Kamikaze]

I'm not knocking the idea.. I think it's great.. I personally can't justify it for the little I drive my car. I would love to play around with it... but even $500 to play with something is too much for me right now...Now, if I could test one for someone for free and document my findings... even if I have to give it back when I'm done... I'm all for it.

[joholste]

500 is much more reasonable. I think i could easily make up for it just driving around DC

[HellBlazer]

I have several first hand accounts of similar products as well as being the installer of a few of them. The principal behind it works- no doubt about it, but putting it on a car that was not meant to run it doesnt yield the gains alot of these companies are saying they will. We already discussed how much power it takes to make a gainable amount of hydrogen, which most cars cant produce. You also have to look at how much fuel the car was designed to run with. Obviously hydrogen is nothing more than fuel, so dumping more fuel into your engine will cause it run rich. The oxygen sensors are suppose to see your engine is running rich and cut back fueling (gasoline). There is the principal of the idea. However, stock oxygen sensors and ECUs only read on a narrowband basis, which means they can only read between a certain window, usually 13.0:1 and 17.0:1. Engineers programmed the ECU to only compensate fuel load for between these numbers. When you start dumping more fuel into the engine than the computations of the ECM allow, you are basically overfueling your car, and wasting fuel- in this case, not a bad thing, just mostly the hydrogen you created. However the computer is only going to take away as much fuel as was programmed by the engineers. On vehicle we installed a DIY kit on, a 2002 Cavalier, we actually went in a manually adjust the computer's fueling tables to compensate for the added fuel from the hydrogen. We also installed a wideband lambda sensor while tuning the fuel table to get the A/F mixture right. Only problem with this is if the guy doesnt keep his water tank full, he will lean out the engine and possible do engine damage. It was the only time I actually saw a reasonable "pay for itself" gain from a DIY hydrogen kit, where he netted about 4-5 mpg better mixed driving

[damronjr]

A guy at my work plans to do this to his Excursion, said he was getting it with installation for $500 through a friend of his.

[Raivis]

if more people want to get this i can talk to me wholesaler about group discount. i can't promise anything with this product but i know they are backing it 100%

[redlava]

I'm calling shenanigans on this. It may work "in theory", but me thinks it's a load of crap.

[AKLGT]

Quote, originally posted by HellBlazer »I have several first hand accounts of similar products as well as being the installer of a few of them. The principal behind it works- no doubt about it, but putting it on a car that was not meant to run it doesnt yield the gains alot of these companies are saying they will. We already discussed how much power it takes to make a gainable amount of hydrogen, which most cars cant produce. You also have to look at how much fuel the car was designed to run with. Obviously hydrogen is nothing more than fuel, so dumping more fuel into your engine will cause it run rich. The oxygen sensors are suppose to see your engine is running rich and cut back fueling (gasoline). There is the principal of the idea. However, stock oxygen sensors and ECUs only read on a narrowband basis, which means they can only read between a certain window, usually 13.0:1 and 17.0:1. Engineers programmed the ECU to only compensate fuel load for between these numbers. When you start dumping more fuel into the engine than the computations of the ECM allow, you are basically overfueling your car, and wasting fuel- in this case, not a bad thing, just mostly the hydrogen you created. However the computer is only going to take away as much fuel as was programmed by the engineers. On vehicle we installed a DIY kit on, a 2002 Cavalier, we actually went in a manually adjust the computer's fueling tables to compensate for the added fuel from the hydrogen. We also installed a wideband lambda sensor while tuning the fuel table to get the A/F mixture right. Only problem with this is if the guy doesnt keep his water tank full, he will lean out the engine and possible do engine damage. It was the only time I actually saw a reasonable "pay for itself" gain from a DIY hydrogen kit, where he netted about 4-5 mpg better mixed drivingBeing in the world of tuning, I fully understand this. However, to say you cannot adjust the timing and AFR to allow for the added "fuel" and what it will do to the car longterm isn't anything people haven't done or haven't been doing for a long time. Why do you think some people get Lean codes from an intake? Because the ECU isn't programmed to see all the extra air (opposite of rich). So, you tune the car to run correctly, making sure your AFR is in tune with the rest of the ECU and functions of the car. I am a HUGE believer in engine management and what it can do. That is why I can run a much higher boost and adjust my AFR on the STI for various versions of octane (90, 93, and 100 oct for race). All these settings and maps take in account for the AFR, rich or lean and adjust the timing tables accordingly. How would this be any different long term? It wouldn't provided you are not releasing anything that could result in engine failure over a long period of time.As for others not seeing the results from a homemade system, I can understand that. Sometimes, you really do get what you pay for and if you can get decent results from a DIY type kit than I guess that's personal preference. However, to me, I'd rather pay a little more for a better system (plus, I do not have the time to make my own). Again, imo, even a 5 mpg increase is a huge savings for me due to the amount of driving and type of fuel required. I'm not driving a car that already gets 30 mpg city. I bought my car because I wanted PERFORMANCE and we all know that performance and fuel efficiency aren't usually used positively in the same sentence. I want something that allows me to increase my fuel efficiency while maintaining the performance, better than what I have and the goal I'm looking/hoping to see is a 25% increase. If I could get better, well that would make me even happier, however I don't see the reality (or maybe it's just wishful thinking) that a system like this would produce such HUGE gas saving results. Let me also add that I will agree that not all vehicles would see a big benefit to something like this nor do I believe that you can have the same results for every car. That is why I chose not to post about this experiment on the Vibe forums because this project is geared towards the Subaru 2.5L Turbocharged Boxer Engine, not a 1.8L VVTL-i or other similar engine. I used to get 26-28 mpg city and 30 mpg hwy in my 03 Vibe GT. I'd love to see those kinds of numbers again and this may allow me to do just that while still maintaining my power level and AWD capability. If this works like we expect it to (hope to), then I will most likely be installing it on all our vehicles, which happen to all be Subaru 2.5L turbocharged Boxer engines.

[HellBlazer]

I also have one more point to add to this arguement. Several years ago, the automotive society of engineers conducted a test, where they created a pill that you simply drop into your gas tank and it is suppose to add power and increase mileage. They found that in their results showed some 70ish percent of people who used it claimed better gas mileage. The pill- nothing more than an off the shelf wellness pill that dissolved in the gas and did absolutely nothing to change the gas. The ASE surveyed the test subjects and found that they drove with a lighter foot- to work in conjunction with thinking that they will see significant gains when using the pill. Alot of people dont realize it- possible a subconscious reaction to having a fuel saving device added to their car- but they will drive easier. Proving that some of these items have a physiological effect on gas mileage as well..

[northvibe]

someone did a water type injection method in their vibe some months ago and found better mileage at first then the car started to crap out as plugs got rusty etc. Ill wait to see what happens.

[joatmon]

Of course I would like to get more mPGs out of my Vibe, I am still getting quite acceptable values. Too bad Subarus need some home made aftermarket add on to correct thier terrible economy numbers. I'm sure glad I don't own one of those guzzlers(I hope hope knows I'm just kidding)The video on that site also talks about a fuel heater and a perrmanent engine treatment as required parts of the complete package. I wonder if those would help even without the H2Hopefully if anyone does try this on a Vibe, they will have good before and after data. Maybe someone who has already been trying some of the hypermiling driving techniques, so that driving techniques won't be a factor in comparing before and after data.

[prathman]

Quote, originally posted by HellBlazer »... some of these items have a physiological effect on gas mileage as well.. Agreed. I'd encourage Hope to have a good series of well-controlled baseline tests, such as fuel consumption at a steady 60 mph on a specific stretch of road on a calm day. And also to do any regular tune-up tasks (filters, plugs, etc.) before the baseline runs so only the effects of the device being tested are measured. Often people install some device but also fix some other things in the car at the same time making it hard to know what was really responsible for any observed improvement.

[AKLGT]

Quote, originally posted by prathman »Agreed. I'd encourage Hope to have a good series of well-controlled baseline tests, such as fuel consumption at a steady 60 mph on a specific stretch of road on a calm day. And also to do any regular tune-up tasks (filters, plugs, etc.) before the baseline runs so only the effects of the device being tested are measured. Often people install some device but also fix some other things in the car at the same time making it hard to know what was really responsible for any observed improvement.Yes, I am well aware of this as I have an onboard computer that tells me my "real time" fuel economy in both the STI and LGT. when I have it on, I usually get better fuel economy than when off because it is a visual reminder to me to stay off the throttle more. I will post the link to my actual thread on legacygt.com forums regarding this. i am testing several aspects to driving and my driving style to include heavy throttle and very low throttle.In fact, just last weekend on our 190 mile (each way) road trip, I noted the difference between aggressively driving and passing vehicles at an avg speed of 80 mph vs on the way back where I set the cruise to 70 mph and only passed a few vehicles at much slower speeds if allowable. There was a 4 mpg difference in that alone. I will be doing the same drive once this kit is installed at almost exactly the same kind of driving styles and times..... on a Friday during fishing/camping season to Soldotna and back. I mostly do city which is where I'm more interested than anything else because it's constant stop and go and speed up, slow down here. We may not have the millions of cars in the area, however we only have 4 main roads really and all 350,000 people are on them at the same time with several stop lights (20 just from my house to my main store). http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90769

[HellBlazer]

So this product requires the use of other products? Thats a redflag right there. I didnt even know that. I'll have to read more into this site now...

[HellBlazer]

Ha, right out of the gate, this company already sounds retarded...Quote »Does Hydrogen really work or is it a scam? Well let's look at the facts and you will make the decision yourself. The first automotive engine that was designed was not meant to combust liquid, but was designed to run on combusted gas vapor.Seeing as how gasoline in liquid for is not flammable, only its evaporated vapor, I guess they are telling the truth?

[Mavrik]

Well I hope it works.

[joatmon]

Quote, originally posted by HellBlazer »So this product requires the use of other products? Thats a redflag right there. I didnt even know that. I'll have to read more into this site now...I don't think you have to. The video commercial they offer appears to be an interview with the inventor, and he talks about those things. Maybe part of the kit is the fuel heate, I'm not sure. They don't show the engine treatment, but they do show it at http://www.hydrogen-boost.comThe engine treatment is also referenced in mimousa's installation procedure page http://www.mimousa.com/hydrogen/installation.aspRaivis, you have the mimo contact, does the kit include a scangauge? The installation page saysQuote »The engine treatment is simply added to the oil sump and for gasoline engines we give you a free upper engine lubricant treatment that is added to the gasoline. The engine treatment is permanent and never has to be repeated. On diesel vehicles we also include a permanent transmission treatment and a permanent differential treatment that is simply added to the lubricants in each. The treatment, lubricant and the Scan gauge are not needed to get the system operational. However to improve the system and gas mileage it is included in the kit.The kit shown at http://www.hydrogen-boost.com/ does include a Scangauge II, but it is not shown in the mimo picture, even though it is referenced inthe mimo install procedures. If it comes with one of those, then that makes it a better deal. If not, then it seems inconsistently representedand no hydrogen thread is complete without this picture

Attached files

[AKLGT]

interesting. the kit that I will be getting is quite complete, I'll post more when I have it in my hands... was to arrive this afternoon in the Valley, but so far haven't seen it yet.

[Raivis]

i have contact mimo and am awaiting answer. tho i probably wont hear anything till monday or tuesday being late on a friday. and to all if there is anything yall want from them for any car let me know. im not making money off yall. everyone else i am but i give yall my cost.

[joatmon]

I'm thinking it probably doesn't come with a scangauge. that other site that shows one in th kit is selling the kit for hundreds more

[ProtonXX]

Quote, originally posted by northvibe »someone did a water type injection method in their vibe some months ago and found better mileage at first then the car started to crap out as plugs got rusty etc. Ill wait to see what happens.lol that was me using aquatune. Ive been using pure hydrogen off and on for a few months & no rust.Aquatune was more likely making a vacuum leek & dropping water into the engine for $600..wasn't worth it.But you can build a kit yourself for $120DONT USE oil additives.... http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...s.htm. My brother put some lucas crap in his scooter & the engine blew out.From my experience I had the best luck with just running Mobil 1 10w-20Fuel heater was a nice addon for me at freeway speeds but I never took it out after to do a follow up on the performance

[HellBlazer]

Ha ha, what did you expect to happen to your scooter by putting Lucas Additive in it? The Lucas oil stabilizer is meant for car engines, not little go cart motors. HUGE difference in operating temp and oil clearances. I run Lucas stabilizer whenever I cant get my hands on Amsoil or Redline oil and have no choice but to run a cheaper conventional oil..

[Raivis]

i heard back from mimo today. i have been told that they possably could include the scangauge if i have a few members interested. so anyone that is thinking about one of the gh20 kits let me know.(just getting a feel for how many at this point no 100% comiment at this time)

[joholste]

I would be interested in one with scanguagestill need to get finance around

[Raivis]

anyone else???

[Mavrik]

I saw something today that proved to me that you can produce flame from water. Its something a friend of mine made and brought in to show us. In order to produce a flame he had to increase the strength beyond the recommended 10amps but it was still really cool to watch. How it will work on a car... yet to be seen but if we can produce a flame from water... I'm sure a car could run on it as a fuel also.

[AKLGT]

we will be installing my kit tomorrow evening.

[rekline]

Have been experimenting on wifes 05 vibe. Ordered $75. hho gen. off ebay. threw everything away except tubing & fittings. Bought 1/2 gal. pickle jar with metal cap from wal-mart. used glass for gen. because of much better heat dissapation & its cool to see whats going on inside/electrolyte level is easy to see. Dist.water/pot.hydrox. electolyte. Lots of gas production went from 30mpg-28mpg.ouch! used some tuning techniques to lower lean out limits...4.7k resist.in parralel w/ect sensor to raise ecu's coolant temp. input ...4.1k resist. in par.w/iat to raise ecu's air temp. input...a little black tape wrap around the maf sensor to lower airflow reading to ecu, had to trim it several times before engine would run. went from 30mpg-23mpg ouch!! {wife frowning}. Currently waiting on map-o2 sensor controller for final test. Let me know how your hho turns out for mpg when you get it up & running...if your have heat problems betwwen the 15-20amp range, i added a 11/2" flexable hose routed to the lower grill up into engine compart. & paralell with gen., capped the end & cut 6" by 3/4" slot in side of tube so forced cool air comes up & blows along the gen. My amps. dropped from 20 to 12-13amp. will be able to add more p.h.{gas prodution} until amps back up 18/20.rick

[NibCrom]

I'm calling major BS on this one. Save your money, buy snake oil instead.

[Whelan]

If this thing worked I would bet a boost from 28-38mpg. Thats 10 more mpg's. So doing some simple math on my own driving per month.Figure about 1500 miles a month I drive. That's another 110 miles to the tank. 11 gallon fillup means that I could go almost 400 miles before a fillup. I drive 375 a week (1500 broken down). So I would fillup 4 times (rounding up) a month as opposed to my typical 6. That means I use 44 gallons of fuel instead of 66. Which saves me over $100 a month. $113 if I round. So at $718 for the unit I would have paid for it in 6.5 months.

[ZubenElGenubi]

Quote, originally posted by rekline »Have been experimenting on wifes 05 vibe. Ordered $75. hho gen. off ebay. threw everything away except tubing & fittings. Bought 1/2 gal. pickle jar with metal cap from wal-mart. used glass for gen. because of much better heat dissapation & its cool to see whats going on inside/electrolyte level is easy to see. Dist.water/pot.hydrox. electolyte. Lots of gas production went from 30mpg-28mpg.ouch! used some tuning techniques to lower lean out limits...4.7k resist.in parralel w/ect sensor to raise ecu's coolant temp. input ...4.1k resist. in par.w/iat to raise ecu's air temp. input...a little black tape wrap around the maf sensor to lower airflow reading to ecu, had to trim it several times before engine would run. went from 30mpg-23mpg ouch!! {wife frowning}. Currently waiting on map-o2 sensor controller for final test. Let me know how your hho turns out for mpg when you get it up & running...if your have heat problems betwwen the 15-20amp range, i added a 11/2" flexable hose routed to the lower grill up into engine compart. & paralell with gen., capped the end & cut 6" by 3/4" slot in side of tube so forced cool air comes up & blows along the gen. My amps. dropped from 20 to 12-13amp. will be able to add more p.h.{gas prodution} until amps back up 18/20.rick

[rekline]

http://www.nuenergy.org/electr...r.htmh ... ck.pdfhttp: //www.fuelsaver-mpg.com/doc/TuningForMileage.htmlhere is some reading for you...may or may not change your mind. If it works or doesn't work i'll let you know. i don't have not much money involved.... study up & build everything yourself.rick

[rekline]

sorry to hurt your head with so much info you don't understand. I'll let you know results, honestly good or bad.rick

[AKLGT]

Quote, originally posted by rekline »Have been experimenting on wifes 05 vibe. Ordered $75. hho gen. off ebay. threw everything away except tubing & fittings. Bought 1/2 gal. pickle jar with metal cap from wal-mart. used glass for gen. because of much better heat dissapation & its cool to see whats going on inside/electrolyte level is easy to see. Dist.water/pot.hydrox. electolyte. Lots of gas production went from 30mpg-28mpg.ouch! used some tuning techniques to lower lean out limits...4.7k resist.in parralel w/ect sensor to raise ecu's coolant temp. input ...4.1k resist. in par.w/iat to raise ecu's air temp. input...a little black tape wrap around the maf sensor to lower airflow reading to ecu, had to trim it several times before engine would run. went from 30mpg-23mpg ouch!! {wife frowning}. Currently waiting on map-o2 sensor controller for final test. Let me know how your hho turns out for mpg when you get it up & running...if your have heat problems betwwen the 15-20amp range, i added a 11/2" flexable hose routed to the lower grill up into engine compart. & paralell with gen., capped the end & cut 6" by 3/4" slot in side of tube so forced cool air comes up & blows along the gen. My amps. dropped from 20 to 12-13amp. will be able to add more p.h.{gas prodution} until amps back up 18/20.rickWell, the install took quite a bit of time. the damn sensor light to say when it's full doesn't work so I have to go to the store and pick up another LED or two (one to replace in my dash and one to mount near the unit when I fill it up since it's in the trunk). So far, 50 miles on it in town. Can't really tell if it's working or not, I see the voltage meter shows about 9 amps (says not to go over 10 amps). There is a useless filter (they say for air, but it's a water filter?) and they have us tapping into the intake AFTER the MAF. That makes no sense to me.... I don't see how that is benefitial since the ECU will think to run the same AFR and fuel. We're going to run it as the manuf suggests for 2 weeks and then move the hose infront of the MAF, tap off the silly "filter" in the rear, and tune for it. I think we'll see some real results, not their crappy ones.We also installed some of our own designed units on an 04 Chevy 1500 4X4 truck 4.8L and a 98 Forrester (old box, no turbo). Getting some great results from those, but no turbo. I think my kit is designed for NA cars or even a turbo diesel, however when it comes to Subaru 2.5L turbo boxer engines, they (manuf) don't have a clue. So we'll tweak it in a few weeks and see how it goes from there.

[NUBlackshirts]

Quote, originally posted by ZubenElGenubi »Glad I wasn't the only one.

[ZubenElGenubi]

Quote, originally posted by rekline »sorry to hurt your head with so much info you don't understand. I'll let you know results, honestly good or bad.rickHere's what I understand: When this is all said and done, you'll have spent more time and effort than most of us on the boards in voiding your warranty and making the car untouchable to most mechanics (that is, should you ever need one). Your system, while ingenious in your effort, sounds to be held together with spit and bailing wire...and with a significant decrease in performance. I just wonder if it will all be worth the effort. I applaud you and Hope for giving this a try, but I have to say I'm remaining skeptical as long as the laws of thermodynamics are in place.

[rekline]

Now that i've got you dander up... I installed a MAP & o2 sensor adjuster thurs. night & after some time tuning only gained 2mpg. the o2 sensor adjuster only has 0 to 1volt range, couldn't hear much change in engine while adjusting o2 pot. alot of change with MAP pot. will try using pot with more adjustment range. let you know how it goes. No warranty left... 30 minutes to remove hho & all mods. Now the 2" hole & little led switch hole in the dash might be a problem.rick

[rekline]

Do i understand you got 50mpg in town?

[rekline]

Don't give up! This has worked for to many other people for it to be a farce. I installed my MAF/o2 senor controls thurs. night MAF adjuster made big changes in engine idle speed the more it was leaned. o2 sensor made no noticeable changes. They{ various forum experts} tell joe public that all o2 sensoradjusters will work on anything. I question that after breaking into my o2 adjuster to look at the specifes inside ---a 0 to 1 v pot w/an unknown resistor {painted i suppose to hide the top secret info}soldered on the pot with a key on only input voltage. My vibe o2 sensor reads a continuous 5.5vdc to 8vdc constant fluctuation with the MAP adjuster off/stock. MAP on & leaned out as far as idle speed wiould allow, o2 reads 4.5vdc to 10 vdc constant fluctation, using analog meter, digital couldn't keep up with flucuations. most o2 sensors give a much lower voltage input to ecu. Thinking of adding a 0 to 5 vdc pot but don't know what the resistor does or what size it is., to give mor v. adjustment range. after i find out resister size needed. as it was o2 doing very little , MAF working great ,gained 2.5 mpg.please keep me updated on your project /what works /what didn't. Will do the same for you.thanks rick

[rekline]

Installed my MAF/o2 adjuster thurs. night MAF works good lean out until engine dies at lower end. o2 doesn't seem to be doin anything supstantial. generic o2 adjusters are questionable to me , thinking they should be designed for each car o2 model to get the best possible lean out avaible. o2 on vibe reads 5.5v to 8 v constant fluctuation w/out MAF on {stock}---MAF on & leaned out , o2 reads 4.5v to 10v.---well i broke into the watch to see how it ticks, input volts line to o2 POT, with unknown resistor soldered in. cannot detect any change from one side of pot adjust to other. i am Thinking pontiac /toyota may need more volts input so may swap to 0-5v POT.don't know resistir size looks like they painted it to conceal top secret info...looking for some one who knows the answers, please friend keep me informed of your progress & mpg results.

[abbotlex]

Quote, originally posted by AKLGT »they have us tapping into the intake AFTER the MAF. That makes no sense to me.... I don't see how that is benefitial since the ECU will think to run the same AFR and fuel. We're going to run it as the manuf suggests for 2 weeks and then move the hose infront of the MAF, tap off the silly "filter" in the rear, and tune for it. I think we'll see some real results, not their crappy ones.This is the reason I don't think this works on modern engines. What happens if you do tap in hydrogen before the MAF? The MAF sees the added volume of airflow (is it really that much?), and the ECU measures the same amount of fuel as before. No gas savings.Do you have to use a MAF/O2 "masking" device in conjunction with the hydrogen kit like rekline is talking about? If so, that's your cause and effect right there. The hydrogen doing little or nothing. If you trick the ECU into leaning out the mixture and forcing the O2 sensor to say it's OK, of course you're going to see better MPG. Except that you'll be destroying your engine because it will be too hot from running extremely lean.

[WintrSol]

I'd just like to add my BS to the whole conversation. For this to work, you'd have to get more energy out of the hydrogen than you put into separating it, which is not possible. It takes more energy to separate hydrogen from water than re-combining hydrogen into water releases, because of inefficiencies in the separation process. Plus, that energy is coming from the very fuel you're trying to save. Pure junk.