is it worth it?

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ramenboy...
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is it worth it?

Post by ramenboy... »

http://consumerist.com/consume...9.phpshut off the car if you're idling for more than 10 seconds...i've heard this stuff since the 90s, but never could justify shutting off the car for a short time and restarting it ...not to mention the vibe's 'hot soak' issues from the pastwhat do you guys think?
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Ol' Timer
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Re: is it worth it? (ramenboy...)

Post by Ol' Timer »

Quote, originally posted by ramenboy... »shut off the car if you're idling for more than 10 seconds...i've heard this stuff since the 90s, but never could justify shutting off the car for a short time and restarting it ...not to mention the vibe's 'hot soak' issues from the pastwhat do you guys think?I don't know of ANYONE that would go this far to save a few dollars on gas. You would be much better off not going more than 55 mph on the highway (and we all know how many people are doing this!). If more people "Downsized" their automobiles, we would have fewer discussions on "What's your gas mileage?" and "$3+/gallon" for gas.
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Flak happy
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Re: is it worth it? (ramenboy...)

Post by Flak happy »

the question is how many safety gadgets still work when the car is shut off?and dont you need the engine for power brakes, steering, ect? Just because your not moving doesnt mean that you will not have to if something happens or is going to happen.
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Re: is it worth it? (ramenboy...)

Post by micbarric »

BMW is going to be installing a Bosch automatic "stop/start" system on some of their 2007 models. Not sure how this will go over with customers. To me it would feel like the car is stalling at every stop! I hope this feature has a defeat switch!!Article: http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-...17+PM
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VforVIBE
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Re: is it worth it? (ramenboy...)

Post by VforVIBE »

But starting the car up takes a lot of power... doing that over and over can't be good.
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prathman
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Re: is it worth it? (VforVIBE)

Post by prathman »

Quote, originally posted by VforVIBE »But starting the car up takes a lot of power... doing that over and over can't be good.Using the starter motor does take some power which is why the usual recommendation has a time threshold like 30 seconds or a minute before it's worthwhile to shut off the engine when stopped.AIRC, about 30 years ago (after the mid-70s gas crisis), both Volkswagen and Toyota developed prototype engines with automatic shut off and restart. The valves were electrically operated and when the car came to a stop they would close at just the right time to retain compression within the cylinders. Then when the driver again stepped on the gas pedal the valves would open in the right sequence for the compression to start the engine turning. So the energy came from engine braking while stopping and there was no extra wear on the starter motor. Don't remember hearing about any real technical problems with the prototype vehicles, but after gas prices stabilized there was less interest in the fuel economy numbers.
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Re: is it worth it? (VforVIBE)

Post by scherry2 »

Quote, originally posted by VforVIBE »But starting the car up takes a lot of power... it doesn't take much electricity with the starters out now to turn over an engine and the engine should start (if properly maintained)without any assistance from the driver on the accelerator GM (let the ranting begin) built a hybrid truck in the 800 series truck. it shut off when you stopped for so many seconds and started back up when you took your foot off the brake and touched the gas. real quiet and smooth. the power steering and brakes were all electric assist when the engine wasn't running.
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ZubenElGenubi
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Re: is it worth it? (scherry2)

Post by ZubenElGenubi »

I usually turn off the engine if I think I'm going to be stopped for more than 20-30 seconds. There are a couple of intersections on the way to work that have horrible cycle times.How about this for a "half-baked idea"? Alternately shut down a couple cylinders (fuel and spark) if the brake is being applied for more than say, five seconds. The car could just putt while idling, reducing wear on the starter system, but keeping the engine in "standby mode".
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Re: is it worth it? (ZubenElGenubi)

Post by scherry2 »

Quote, originally posted by ZubenElGenubi »How about this for a "half-baked idea"? Alternately shut down a couple cylinders (fuel and spark)".GM has that in some new cars, I can't remember what they called it though.
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Post by NewNeptune »

They call it Active Fuel Management and it only works at speed and when the vehicle is cruising. Any acceleration at all and it kicks in all the cylinders. You'll see it on the trucks, Suburban, etc. Also it only switches between 8 and 4 cylinders.
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ajconover
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Re: is it worth it? (ZubenElGenubi)

Post by ajconover »

> How about this for a "half-baked idea"? Like others have said, it's not "half-baked" at all.Semi trucks with the big diesels have been doing this for a while. Years ago, a friend of mine (a combustion engineer) worked at Cummins Engine Co. and he was talking about how "split" crank shafts were possible, so the non-essential cylinders were not even moving when disengaged.... hence not consuming any energy from the "active" cylinders. (I guess there were earlier techniques where the inactive cylinders just left the exhaust values open and closed off the intake valves. Since diesels have no spark plugs, I suppose spark timing and/or backfiring were not a issue.)Anyway, I'm in no way an expert on engines. Though, I can see the idea being a bit more complicated on gasoline engines, where spark timing is a big consideration... but in the age of computerized spark and valve timing, I'm sure this idea will be used more and more... especially in hybrids... but I'm just totally guessing.But, as for the original question about turning off the engine... I've seen enough starters go bad that unnecessary use of it always concerns me. Plus, I would imagine that the thermal stresses of repeatedly cooling down when off, only to heat back up when re-started, can't possibly be good for an engine not designed for that. I say, if it looks like you'll be stuck in traffic for a while due to an accident up ahead or something, turn off the engine... if you're stopped at a light for 60 seconds, I just don't see the point.
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high revin
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Post by high revin »

This has to be the dumbest thread i ever heard of, Do you think Toyota would design a motor -that after idling for a few minytes it would hurt come on beside im a big fan of not leaving a non deisel motor running very long either really not good on them to have them idling for a half an hour or so contiunously, but is this all the better info you guys have to come up with in a thread than this plzzzzz
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Re: (high revin)

Post by joatmon »

I don't know, I have seen some really dumb threads on other forums. dumb would be to turn you engine off at a light to save gas, and then turn it on and go full throttle when the light turns green.I still think the best efficiency gain is to drive at a reasonable speed, accelerate gently, all the boring stuff that we've all heard before.Quote, originally posted by high revin » Do you think Toyota would design a motor -that after idling for a few minytes it would hurt come on beside im a big fan of not leaving a non deisel motor running very long either really not good on them to have them idling for a half an hour or so contiunously, but is this all the better info you guys have to come up with in a thread than this plzzzzz I am trying to figure out what that sentence means, but it is too long, covers about 5 things, not nearly enough punctuation. I can't figure out if you think it is dumb that people are considering turning off engines at traffic lights, or that it is dumb for them to not do that.
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Tubaryan12
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Post by Tubaryan12 »

Hey, I've been doing it for about a week and a half and I believe it works. Like I said here:http://forums.genvibe.com/zero...35879I have used cars to deliver pizzas in for years and I don't think I go through anymore starters than anyone else. I'm willing to be the lab rat and I'll keep you all posted. Never forget, a car at idle gets 0 miles per gallon.
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Ol' Timer
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Re: (joatmon)

Post by Ol' Timer »

Quote, originally posted by joatmon »I still think the best efficiency gain is to drive at a reasonable speed, accelerate gently, all the boring stuff that we've all heard before.X2There are exceptions to shutting off your engine when idling for long periods of time.When you're stuck in traffic, and the temperature is around 0 F or 100 F Outside, you need the Heat/AC to keep you warm/cool. You're not about to shut your engine off to save a few pennies.
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pacerman
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Re: is it worth it? (ramenboy...)

Post by pacerman »

New by-law in Vancouver BC, that you cannot idle for more than three minutes. Engines must be turned off, whether thay can police this is another matter, are they going to have a 1000 by-law officers watching and timing people for the 3 minute limit???The laws have gone awry!!!!!
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Re: is it worth it? (micbarric)

Post by silver_vibe »

Quote, originally posted by micbarric »...To me it would feel like the car is stalling at every stop!...When I rode in my friend's Honda Insight back when they first came out (sometime around 2000), it would completely shut off at a red light - when he put it in first gear the engine would turn back on. I don't know if all hybrids do this. It was a wierd feeling...it really did feel like the car stalled at every red light.
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Re: is it worth it? (pacerman)

Post by phunkyvibe »

Im am not aware of this law, good to know, not that, like you said, they can enforce something like that. If a cop came up to you just say ive been here for 2 1/2 minutes, whats he going to do? wait that 1/2 minute then give you a ticket? Mind you, cops out here and pretty sticky. I was waiting for my wife at work, and I was laid back in my seat with the car on, and a cop came up because my window was open, and grabbed my car keys and shut off my car. I had my hat over my eyes and i could have grabbed his arm if I saw it in time, and I bet you i would have gotten arrested for assault on an officer!Plus out here in vancouver, we have something called aircare. To my knowledge there are few states/provinces that have this. This is a place you go to get emission tests done, and if you vehicle does not pass, you cant renew insurance. I think california and Vancouver have this, not aware of any other states. Not even Vancouver Island has aircare, which is about a 1 1/2 ferry ride over the ocean. Now as of 2009 they are stopping all aircare. So how can they enforce a bylaw like that, im assuming to reduce pollution, when they are stopping something like aircare?
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Several issues

Post by lexicon »

1) How much volume of gasoline is used in idling? Some of you guys who have special gauges can figure the exact volume of gas used to idle the car for an hour. And, figure how may pennies you will save.2) There is an extra wear inflicted on the starter that will also shorten its life based on the # of times the car is started (wears the copper contacts)There is a trade off .In general, if I am at a railroad crossing, I turn off the engine.
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lexicon
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Several issues

Post by lexicon »

1) How much volume of gasoline is used in idling? Some of you guys who have special gauges can figure the exact volume of gas used to idle the car for an hour. And, figure how may pennies you will save.2) There is an extra wear inflicted on the starter that will also shorten its live based on the # of times the car is started (wears the copper contacts)There is a trade off .In general, if I am at a railroad crossing, I turn off the engine.
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4azdmunky
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Re: is it worth it? (ramenboy...)

Post by 4azdmunky »

In Germany its law and you can get fined if your in a stow for more than 2 minutes with the car idling. They are really environmentally conscious....damn hippies.I guess thats why their country is so green.
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Re: Several issues

Post by ColonelPanic »

If I can, and I'm going to be sitting somewhere for more than a couple of minutes, I will kill the engine if the A/C or heat is not needed... I don't remember what the Vibe consumed, but the ScanGauge says my Accent uses 0.3 gal/hr (A/C off,) and 0.4 gal/hr (A/C on.) In contrast, on the highway, A/C on, it reads ~1.4-1.5@55 MPH, and ~2.0@70 MPH - give or take, depending on the conditions.I *think* I'm doing the math right (maybe not, I suck at math ) it takes me almost $0.02 to idle one minute if gas is $2.75 a gallon.
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Post by joatmon »

I did a test today, used my scangauge which can read fuel used to 1/10th gallon, reset the current trip and watched gallons used, it took 16.5 minutes to use 1/10 gallon. This was in neutral (I have a 5 speed) parking brake (not brake pedal) radio on low, ~75F ambient temp, headlights off.That is equivalent to 0.36363636... gallons per hour.Looking over the various actual gas mileage numbers, and not using my own numbers, say you normally fill up at 1/4 tank, with 10 gallons of gas, and you have driven 300 miles, giving you 30 mpg.Now, if in the course of that 300 miles, you sat idliing for one hour. If you had turned off the car for that one hour instead of idliing it, then your 300 miles would have only taken 9.636363... gallons, which would give you 31.13 mpgIf in the course of that 300 miles you idled for two hours total, turning it off would give you 300 miles, 9.272727 gallons, or 32.35 mpg, avoiding 3 hours would give you 33.67mpg, 4 hours would give you 35.11 mpgSo, theoretically, turning off the engine when you are idling can save you some gas, increasing your overall mpg.The next step would be to time how much time you actually spend sitting at idle over the course of a tank. I am not sure how much it is for me, but I would guess one hour or less, I will have to start timing it to really know though.Now, if you do turn off the engine at traffic lights, it is important to remember to continue to drive normally. If you alter your driving habits to be more gentle in accelerating combined with no idling, then you might get the impression that the no idling part is saving more gas that it really is. You'd have to ensure that your driving habits are the same with idling and with no idliing to do a valid comparison. I use the scangauge to display current average mpg, and that little reminder helps me keep my foot out of the gas.Also, if you didn't notice the light turning green, and are sitting there with the engine off and all of a sudden people behind you are leaning on their horns, the natural reaction would be to start it up and punch the gas, and that punching the gas will cost more gas than you saved by idling. One full throttle 0-60 acceleration will cost you more gas than you saved by turning the engine off for a traffic light.
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Post by engineertwin2 »

A problem we have reached here in the power industry is that parts are cheaper to burn than gas - which means we'd rather start and stop a combustion gas turbine 150-200 times a year even if it was only designed to be started and stopped 20 times a year.Having said that, at what point in time does it get cheaper to burn parts than gas in our cars? Certainly for a fair amount of vehicles, starting will be the hardest time on the engine. There have to be maintenance consequences associated with starting the engine (hence why Pontiac gives a 3,000 mile to 7,500 mile Oil Change Interval range).Also, no one has mentioned that energy from the starter motor comes from cycling the battery, which is recharged by the engine, so you are saving some fuel, but there is a trade off for this.I'm not saying one way or the other whether or not you should shut off the engine, but surely there are consequences to everything, and sitting at a stop light with the car off may require you to assume a fair amount of risk (safety wise), unless you have a starting system similar to the Prius...
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Re: (engineertwin2)

Post by Tubaryan12 »

The only example I can think of of where stopping your car could be dangerous is if you live in an area where car jacking happens a lot. Are there any other safety concerns where having the car off would be a problem and how many times have they occurred?
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Re: (engineertwin2)

Post by Tubaryan12 »

oops....double entry
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Re: (Tubaryan12)

Post by engineertwin2 »

Quote, originally posted by Tubaryan12 »Are there any other safety concerns where having the car off would be a problem and how many times have they occurred?Well, certainly I could come up with extraordinary examples, but there is a risk of road rage if commuting in heavy traffic as I often do. It's bad enough for those who don't notice the light turn green right away...heaven forbid you stall out and have to restart your engine. It seems to me that this method is the same as stalling out at every light.Additional concerns are other vehicles in general. There has been more than once where I was glad to be able to "inch closer" to the vehicle in front of me and undoubtedly saved at least 2 collisions. Of course, I use the Smith Driving System and typically leave at least one car length between me and the vehicle in front of me.There is the risk of being stranded...if you tend to only turn your engine off at your destination (presumable a parking lot or a house) you will be in a safe location should something like the alternator fail and the battery is drained - unable to start. You'd be out of the way and not on a major roadway.Starting an engine is about as far away as you can get from steady-state. Think about a light-bulb - a bulb typically burns out when you turn it on, not during longterm operation. Same goes for seals, gaskets, etc - they typically go during rapid changes and non-steady state conditions. With the exception of CP, most people aren't too worried about their car once it's going. It's only essentially during startup that a problem materializes. Not saying it won't during drive time, but better my startups are in safe, off roadway locations.
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Post by joatmon »

It is hard to say what the long term effects will be. Hybrids do this intentionally, but they also have electric motors to let you move the car when the gas engine is off. In DC, a lot of the walk/don't walk signs have count down timers, which would be really handy if you were going to do the no idling thing.
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Tubaryan12
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Re: (engineertwin2)

Post by Tubaryan12 »

Quote, originally posted by engineertwin2 »Well, certainly I could come up with extraordinary examples, but there is a risk of road rage if commuting in heavy traffic as I often do. It's bad enough for those who don't notice the light turn green right away...heaven forbid you stall out and have to restart your engine. It seems to me that this method is the same as stalling out at every light.Additional concerns are other vehicles in general. There has been more than once where I was glad to be able to "inch closer" to the vehicle in front of me and undoubtedly saved at least 2 collisions. Of course, I use the Smith Driving System and typically leave at least one car length between me and the vehicle in front of me.There is the risk of being stranded...if you tend to only turn your engine off at your destination (presumable a parking lot or a house) you will be in a safe location should something like the alternator fail and the battery is drained - unable to start. You'd be out of the way and not on a major roadway.Starting an engine is about as far away as you can get from steady-state. Think about a light-bulb - a bulb typically burns out when you turn it on, not during longterm operation. Same goes for seals, gaskets, etc - they typically go during rapid changes and non-steady state conditions. With the exception of CP, most people aren't too worried about their car once it's going. It's only essentially during startup that a problem materializes. Not saying it won't during drive time, but better my startups are in safe, off roadway locations.Those things I understand. I was getting the impression that others were concerned with safety features of the car (i.e. air bags). The day I start to factor road rage into the equation of driving my car is the day I start taking the bus. Personally, I'm more afraid of deer. It's good to see you are using Smith driving system. I find that I make more drivers mad because I am not tailgating the car in front of me than anything else I have ever done on the road. How dare I leave a safe cushion between myself and the driver in front of me?I think the light bulb example is not a very good one when compairing it to a car because the on/off states of a light bulb are so much different than the restarting a hot car. The bulb ususally blows when starting from cold. That is a much bigger shock. Good to see someone else using Smith. I feel a little safer out there now .
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Post by Tubaryan12 »

My last 5 fills from 4/6/07 thru 4.28.07400 miles@11.4 gal = 35.1 mpg371 miles@11.1 gal = 33.5 mpg344 miles@10.9 gal = 31.5 mpg395 miles@11.2 gal = 35.3 mpg417 miles@11.018 gal = 37.8 mpgaverage = 34.6 mpg driving 95% highway @ 60 mphScanguage Owners: do any of you have automatic transmissions, and if so, what is the amount of gas used while the car idles with the car in drive?
ex Vibe: 2005 Abyss 2 tone base, auto, power package (33.24 mpg combined)2008 Kia Rondo EX V6 7 passenger Volcanic Red w/ tan cloth interior (26.7 mpg combined) Finally got 30 mpg combined on the Rondo V-6 (10.24.09) Smith Driving
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Re: (Tubaryan12)

Post by pacerman »

I've got one on order, will let you know, surely someone must have one hooked up??
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Re: (Smith System)

Post by VivaVibe »

Never heard it called that before, but I've always thought the suggestions were fairly common knowledge. I'm not sure 3 seconds is enough reaction time though. I've heard one car length for every 10 mph.The thing that irritates me is those that leave 1 to 3 car lengths between them and the next car while stopped in rush hour traffic. Especially in a left turn lane at a light. Don't they know there are others needing to get into the turn lane so they don't block the through lane? Just no consideration for others, and it seems to often be someone driving a Toyota. Is that in their owner's manual?
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Re: (VivaVibe)

Post by Tubaryan12 »

Quote, originally posted by VivaVibe »Never heard it called that before, but I've always thought the suggestions were fairly common knowledge. I'm not sure 3 seconds is enough reaction time though. I've heard one car length for every 10 mph.The thing that irritates me is those that leave 1 to 3 car lengths between them and the next car while stopped in rush hour traffic. Especially in a left turn lane at a light. Don't they know there are others needing to get into the turn lane so they don't block the through lane? Just no consideration for others, and it seems to often be someone driving a Toyota. Is that in their owner's manual?That is too much space. Smiths says that you should be able to see the bottom of the rear tires of the car in front of you. If you can, that means you have enough room to turn your wheels and get out of the space you are in if you have to.
ex Vibe: 2005 Abyss 2 tone base, auto, power package (33.24 mpg combined)2008 Kia Rondo EX V6 7 passenger Volcanic Red w/ tan cloth interior (26.7 mpg combined) Finally got 30 mpg combined on the Rondo V-6 (10.24.09) Smith Driving
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