Performance cam phaser for engine build

1.8-liter VVTL-i (2ZZ-GE) and VVT-i (1ZZ-FE) engine, transmission, exhaust, intake, and performance tuning discussions
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ThoughtApple257
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Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by ThoughtApple257 » Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:13 am

:roll: Hey all. Just trying to get some info before I decide on some part about some performance cam phaser for my 04 vibe gt 6sp. My goal is to bump compression, build the head, and add high flow oil pump, along with fuel and ignition as needed. Mu problem is Google isn't the best way to search for this product. I tried searching the forum for cam phaser advice but could not find anything. Does anyone have a company name or part number that they would trust with stronger engine...also would love to hear about your builds such as parts used and power gains...pictures say it all nudge nudge

zbyers
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by zbyers » Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:33 am

The best website for performance on these engines is monkeywrenchracing.com. I'm not sure if they have what you're looking for, but they specialize in performance goodies for the 1ZZ and 2ZZ.
(2) '03 Bases, '03 GT, '04 GT, '04 AWD, '06 AWD, '07 Base, '17 Frontier CCLB
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treesleavedents
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by treesleavedents » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:50 am

ddpr in texas is knowledgable about the 2zz engines as well.

In terms of adding power, some guys in puerto rico have been doing NA builds on stock internals in the low 200 hp range at the wheels. PPE makes good intakes and exhausts. I have their stainless long tube header with a spiked collector and their stainless midpipe with a high flow cat and resonator. It's never been installed and I might be persuaded to part with it...

For heads I wouldn't mess with compression too much unless you want to get into high power high cost stuff, changing rods and pistons and all that. Unfortunately at that point you're probably gonna need piston $leeve$

maybe focus on an aftermarket cams, valves, valve springs, valve spring retainers, and a standalone engine management system.
2003 Vibe GT navigation(swapped for MVH-x560BT). Supertones, 3M tint, Eibachs, Injen, PPE header and mid-pipe, custom borla axle back, stereo, custom upholstery, and an ultraguage. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=44330

Bookworm
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by Bookworm » Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:54 pm

treesleavedents wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:50 am
ddpr in texas is knowledgable about the 2zz engines as well.

In terms of adding power, some guys in puerto rico have been doing NA builds on stock internals in the low 200 hp range at the wheels. PPE makes good intakes and exhausts. I have their stainless long tube header with a spiked collector and their stainless midpipe with a high flow cat and resonator. It's never been installed and I might be persuaded to part with it...

For heads I wouldn't mess with compression too much unless you want to get into high power high cost stuff, changing rods and pistons and all that. Unfortunately at that point you're probably gonna need piston $leeve$

maybe focus on an aftermarket cams, valves, valve springs, valve spring retainers, and a standalone engine management system.
Or just admit that it's a station wagon, and not try to make a race car out of it :)

treesleavedents
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by treesleavedents » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:30 am

The CTS-V wagon would like to have a chat with you.

Body style doesn't determine what the engine is capable of. The 2zz can be made more powerful if you have the money. And if OP wants to spend it on a vibe then we should help them instead of being negative for no good reason.
2003 Vibe GT navigation(swapped for MVH-x560BT). Supertones, 3M tint, Eibachs, Injen, PPE header and mid-pipe, custom borla axle back, stereo, custom upholstery, and an ultraguage. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=44330

Bookworm
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by Bookworm » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:59 am

treesleavedents wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:30 am
The CTS-V wagon would like to have a chat with you.

Body style doesn't determine what the engine is capable of. The 2zz can be made more powerful if you have the money. And if OP wants to spend it on a vibe then we should help them instead of being negative for no good reason.
it's called being realistic.

You can do all sorts of things to the engine -performance cams, bore out the cylinders, oversized pistons, reprogram the computer system - and it's still a small engine, designed to just take care of the car and some light hauling, and I've already seen a number of posts on here talking about how their transmissions would give out due to extra weight. You'd get more improvement by cutting the car off behind the front seats, and remove all of the extra steel (fenders, etc) That'd take a bunch of weight off. Basically, stripping it down to the absolute basics.

Remember, the frame and suspension aren't designed for racing either. They'd have to be modded.

If I was going to do that kind of effort, I'd go for something like the old Ford Festiva, which was apparently very popular with the racers.

But yes - you are correct. If the OP wants to do it, it's his/her car to do so with.

treesleavedents
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by treesleavedents » Wed May 01, 2019 7:25 am

OP didn't ask for realism. I would also point out that the 2zz-ge motor was specifically designed to be a performance motor. You're just being negative and I'm not sure why.
2003 Vibe GT navigation(swapped for MVH-x560BT). Supertones, 3M tint, Eibachs, Injen, PPE header and mid-pipe, custom borla axle back, stereo, custom upholstery, and an ultraguage. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=44330

jolt
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by jolt » Sun May 05, 2019 12:49 pm

High flow oil pump and making power are going in opposite directions. Keep wishing and spending money as your dreams go broke. History has proven that you can not beat cubic inches unless you have enough cubic dollars to through at it. Unless you are racing in a class that has rules on the engine, get a bigger engine. The power comes from the fuel. If you can not feed more fuel, It does not matter what the rest of the motor has. Stock fuel injectors will only supply so much fuel. The only other way to get more power from the same amount of fuel is to make the motor more efficient and if you can do that then you should be designing engines for the auto makers. If you do make a high powered engine for racing, it will not be street able. If you want to add a little more power, the cheapest is a bigger motor that is coupled to the bigger drive train that can handle the power. Would you put a cam, header, etc on your lawn mower because you needed more power or would you just buy a different mower that had a bigger engine?

KingKrab65
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by KingKrab65 » Tue May 07, 2019 6:03 am

Wow, so much negativity about modding out the Vibe. I guess Pontiac was ignorant when they created a performance version of the Vibe called the GT, right? Not everyone wants the same silver base Vibe with the same motor and performance. Treesleevesdents is correct, if this young person wants to change or mod their Vibe they should be able to do it. (BTW - this IS the performance category of the website)

I have a Dakota pickup truck that I have added on to. A simple tune has added 25 hp and 25 ft/tq plus plus improved my gas mileage. It was worth the money to me to improve my truck and be able to do the things I want to do in it but it may not be for other people. There are always people on the Dakota forum who's first answer is always "get a bigger motor" when people ask questions. That's not why people join these forums, at least not me.

One of the reasons I am on the genvibe forum is the help I get from other members on making changes to my Vibe. I have always felt welcome even though the question may be simple or may seem easy to others. Not everyone shares intimate knowledge of the Vibe but we are here to learn. If you do not have anything constructive or instructive to add to query, please do not be harsh and denigrating to the person asking the question. Thanks!
2003 Base Vibe

jolt
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by jolt » Tue May 07, 2019 10:29 am

KingKrab65 wrote "who's first answer is always "get a bigger motor"". The case in point here is the 2009 and 2010 Vibe. What did Pontiac do different from the first gen Vibe? For the performance GT model, they put in a bigger engine going from the 1.8 to the 2.4L. Along with this engine change was the drive train change that can handle the increase in torque from the larger engine. The hubs, brakes, bearings, etc.. even the wheel bolt pattern is larger. You do this to create a drive able, street able car.

The first gen Vibes used two different 1.8L engines in the base and the GT models. Why would Pontiac drop the 1.8L in the GT and go with the 2.4L for performance? At some point you hit a wall of diminishing returns where you gain little while spending a lot more money. If your main goal is to increase power at the wheels, the cheapest thing to do is change the gear ratio in the rear end to a deeper ratio. Of course there go any gas mileage down the drain. Spend the money on keeping all the parts of the engine in top shape and condition, that is where you will get the most performance for your money. All the parts of the motor have to work together. As an example, if you put a header on a engine that has a bad throttle body your going to gain nothing. A turbo or super charger would make the most sense today but you still need to feed it fuel for more power. If you can not modify the electronic controls for the fuel delivery, you are stuck.

We are not here to recreate the wheel. If history has taught us anything, look back at the 1960's and drag racing. All the manufactures jumped at stuffing the biggest motor they made into the smallest cars they had. Power to weight ratio, as Bookworm referred to, is the key to performance. Physics and the laws of nature can not be denied, not even with a car or motor. Trying to help a person save their money and time is what this is about. If the person has a ton of money and whats to play around; I am all for that on a race track. It is just that a lot of people have been down this road before, myself included, and i do not want to see someone wasting money and not get the results they thought they would.

Bookworm
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by Bookworm » Tue May 07, 2019 6:55 pm

There's also a big difference between negativity and being realistic.

There are a LOT of modifications that can be done to these cars, station wagon or not. Unfortunately, these are NOT the engines of the 1940's, which could be modified like crazy. (V8-60 as a big example) These engines have been extremely carefully designed around all of the parts on them to get the maximum of power out of a minimum of space and fuel.

Thus, they created the 2.4L engine when they needed more power for a 'sport' version, rather than just upgrading the 1.8L engine. That's because the 1.8L couldn't be upgraded.

So most of the modifications are to the intakes, exhausts, and add-on components, not the engine itself. More for smoothing out the highest RPM and the lowest, and getting the most out of the gearing (going for a 6 speed transmission over a 5, for example).

KingKrab65
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by KingKrab65 » Wed May 08, 2019 4:26 am

Bookworm wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 6:55 pm
There's also a big difference between negativity and being realistic.

There are a LOT of modifications that can be done to these cars, station wagon or not. Unfortunately, these are NOT the engines of the 1940's, which could be modified like crazy. (V8-60 as a big example) These engines have been extremely carefully designed around all of the parts on them to get the maximum of power out of a minimum of space and fuel.

Thus, they created the 2.4L engine when they needed more power for a 'sport' version, rather than just upgrading the 1.8L engine. That's because the 1.8L couldn't be upgraded.

So most of the modifications are to the intakes, exhausts, and add-on components, not the engine itself. More for smoothing out the highest RPM and the lowest, and getting the most out of the gearing (going for a 6 speed transmission over a 5, for example).
Being realistic is obviously what I am asking for, not the "these are econoboxes and aren't worth doing anything to them">
2003 Base Vibe

zbyers
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by zbyers » Wed May 08, 2019 4:34 am

If we are going to be realistic, OP can build it...But, the cost can become cumbersome. A member autocrosses his out in California and had MWR build the engine, turbo it, and put an e153 trans in it. He's pushing something like 480whp. That said, he solely tracks the car and does not use it as a daily.

Based on part pricing from MWR: 2zz turbokit ~$2600+. E153 ~$7000+. Built 2.0L stroker ~$7400+.

So for $17k+ at a minimum, you could have a bad[removed] Vibe. OR, be halfway into buying a stock Focus RS (or simliar hot hatch) and have nearly as many sea-serpents (HP) as you would on the built Vibe.

tbh, being that these cars are 16+ years old and rust is starting to eat them, doing all of that feels like chasing good money after bad.
(2) '03 Bases, '03 GT, '04 GT, '04 AWD, '06 AWD, '07 Base, '17 Frontier CCLB
GenVibe on Facebook, Everything You Need To Know About Vibes, Great How-To Index

Bookworm
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by Bookworm » Wed May 08, 2019 10:11 am

KingKrab65 wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 4:26 am
Bookworm wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 6:55 pm
There's also a big difference between negativity and being realistic.

There are a LOT of modifications that can be done to these cars, station wagon or not. Unfortunately, these are NOT the engines of the 1940's, which could be modified like crazy. (V8-60 as a big example) These engines have been extremely carefully designed around all of the parts on them to get the maximum of power out of a minimum of space and fuel.

Thus, they created the 2.4L engine when they needed more power for a 'sport' version, rather than just upgrading the 1.8L engine. That's because the 1.8L couldn't be upgraded.

So most of the modifications are to the intakes, exhausts, and add-on components, not the engine itself. More for smoothing out the highest RPM and the lowest, and getting the most out of the gearing (going for a 6 speed transmission over a 5, for example).
Being realistic is obviously what I am asking for, not the "these are econoboxes and aren't worth doing anything to them">
Where did I say that? I said that they're station wagons, and aimed as such. Econoboxes can be some of the best little racers around - look at what people used to do with the Ford Festiva. You can't find them, not because they all died, but because they were being bought and driven into the dirt by racers.

ThoughtApple257
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by ThoughtApple257 » Wed May 29, 2019 5:49 pm

Ok to start off I didnt post this to bring in the nay sayers and key turners that just say "buy a better car"...I fell in love with this car when it first came out I'm hell bent on doing my project so if your just gona talk crap about my idea u can sit on it and spin cause I dont have to care about your silly millenial need to convince people to buy the car you want so you feel specail... not that that's done I've done alot of looking at monkey wrench and deffinatly love their supply of performance and OEM parts so I will probably get my parts thru them...I want to stick with NA and build from that...I've read that the head is almost as good as it can get so porting will be out of the question which is a bummer because I had a blast opening up my old celica head...another thing I'm worried about is which rear end to use...I dont like the solid rear axle so I thinking about the awd rear end minus the dog house or the celica rear end as it's much more adjustable and I'm not a fan of the solid bar that requires shims...I'm a fabricator so I'm not worried about a little cutting, grinding and welding

zbyers
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by zbyers » Thu May 30, 2019 3:29 am

the awd and celica have the same exact rear end, minus different springs/struts
(2) '03 Bases, '03 GT, '04 GT, '04 AWD, '06 AWD, '07 Base, '17 Frontier CCLB
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ThoughtApple257
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by ThoughtApple257 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:28 am

Awsome thanks for the info...only a couple more questions I think of one being has milling the head down worked for anyone or just created problems and does anyone thing sleeves are needed for a 400 horse build with no turbo?

zbyers
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by zbyers » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:03 am

how do you intend to get 400 ponies without boost?
(2) '03 Bases, '03 GT, '04 GT, '04 AWD, '06 AWD, '07 Base, '17 Frontier CCLB
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ThoughtApple257
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by ThoughtApple257 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:11 pm

The low end build is mu final step where the engine most likely will not be street legal and will need race gas to run but by then it will no longer be my daily driver...ii haven't blueprinted the low end yet but expect to need a compression of around 13...I dont want to speculate on what type of parts I will need yet as I haven't put anything on paper yet, trying to go one step at a time...this is not going to be just another standard crate motor when I'm done but I need to plan accordingly so I don't have to backstep and change parts so I would like to start with the head

ThoughtApple257
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by ThoughtApple257 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:19 pm

jolt wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 10:29 am
KingKrab65 wrote "who's first answer is always "get a bigger motor"". The case in point here is the 2009 and 2010 Vibe. What did Pontiac do different from the first gen Vibe? For the performance GT model, they put in a bigger engine going from the 1.8 to the 2.4L. Along with this engine change was the drive train change that can handle the increase in torque from the larger engine. The hubs, brakes, bearings, etc.. even the wheel bolt pattern is larger. You do this to create a drive able, street able car.

The first gen Vibes used two different 1.8L engines in the base and the GT models. Why would Pontiac drop the 1.8L in the GT and go with the 2.4L for performance? At some point you hit a wall of diminishing returns where you gain little while spending a lot more money. If your main goal is to increase power at the wheels, the cheapest thing to do is change the gear ratio in the rear end to a deeper ratio. Of course there go any gas mileage down the drain. Spend the money on keeping all the parts of the engine in top shape and condition, that is where you will get the most performance for your money. All the parts of the motor have to work together. As an example, if you put a header on a engine that has a bad throttle body your going to gain nothing. A turbo or super charger would make the most sense today but you still need to feed it fuel for more power. If you can not modify the electronic controls for the fuel delivery, you are stuck.

We are not here to recreate the wheel. If history has taught us anything, look back at the 1960's and drag racing. All the manufactures jumped at stuffing the biggest motor they made into the smallest cars they had. Power to weight ratio, as Bookworm referred to, is the key to performance. Physics and the laws of nature can not be denied, not even with a car or motor. Trying to help a person save their money and time is what this is about. If the person has a ton of money and whats to play around; I am all for that on a race track. It is just that a lot of people have been down this road before, myself included, and i do not want to see someone wasting money and not get the results they thought they would.
And to this simple key Turner just because your afraid to get a little dirty and wanna take the easy rout by LS swapping the world doesn't mean I gota follow your dumbass...I've ported so many small engine heads(including my personal lawn mowers) not because I needed to but because I wanted to... going big or going home is for quitters that cant build a motor...always remember power to weight beats displacement everytime

jolt
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by jolt » Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:07 am

Five posts and your getting petty mouthy. I can already tell you that no one here is will be able to help YOU. What make and model flow bench did you use for your porting tests and how much testing and how many dyno pulls did you run after your work? Why are you on this board if you know all the answers? Go back to school and grow up. I built more engines and have done more cylinder head repairs then you ever looked at. I have been building engines for the local short track cars, have been evolved with building at least thirteen NASCAR local track champions, and have one regional NASCAR champion I worked with, A Bachelor degree in Mechanical Engineering, and I could go on but it is a waste of my time talking to an a-hole like you. Go craw back in your little dream world and have fun wasting your money. Horsepower= what X what. You probably can not even answer that simple equation. I could tell from your first question that you are talking smack and are truly clueless and have little to no professional racing experience.

zbyers
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by zbyers » Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:36 am

I do have to agree with jolt. Several here provided answers, obviously none of which you were looking for. Why did you ask in the first place? You /knew/ "google isn't the best way to search," yet ignore those with vast knowledge here. Jolt and bookworm have been a huge asset to the community, even if they have moved on from this platform. To simply disregard their advice is asinine.

Tone down the a-holeism and maybe you'd get a more positive response after your initial post. *shrug emoji*
(2) '03 Bases, '03 GT, '04 GT, '04 AWD, '06 AWD, '07 Base, '17 Frontier CCLB
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ThoughtApple257
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by ThoughtApple257 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:22 pm

Well so far I've gotten all my questions answered except for head milling...wat I didnt ask for were long drawn out explanations from people with more money than sense...you want to go out and by 20k beamer and go race go for it...my budget is the few dollars I can hide from my wife everyday that I get to keep so excuse me for getting upidy when people tell me my goal is stupid...again flow benches and dyno pulls aren't in the budget plus it makes it hard to flow test go kart and lawn mower heads...and your right I have no experience on a real race track with closed roads but ask if that matters to me cause I'm sure you can gues my answer

ThoughtApple257
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by ThoughtApple257 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:00 pm

Joined Toyota nation...where I apologize for stepping on toes and making a few people angry I will never apologize for standing up for my ideas and what I want do with MY car...I now see why there so many more people active on that forum than this one...for those that view ths thread it was a dead end only ending with pick a awd vibe\matrix to scavenge the rear crossmember out of to replace your cheapo solid rear axle...if you love your vibe as much as I do please don't listen to ANY other advise on this thread other than that anything is possible to those with the knowledge and the will to do so, so never be afraid to ask and if you get crappy info like I did (minus the awd rear end info) then ask Toyota nation...ps I never needed to explain how many engines I've rebuilt or heads I've rebuilt as i dont need to keyboard brag on a forum...so have your way with this post as I no you will(bookworm,jolt) cause you seem like your the type to stomp on dreams and only help the people with normal problems and not complicated problems that require either actuall DIY experience or an open mind...fingers crossed for the 2zz monster to hit nap town

Bookworm
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by Bookworm » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:04 pm

Quite frankly, and to be possibly slightly offensive, I would never take any technical advise from someone who is as terrible in English as you. Atrocious grammar, sentence structure, incalculable spelling errors, and more. You've also shown that you have the stereotypical hatred of the uneducated towards anyone who might be more skilled or experienced than you. You were asked if you had the right tools and the right background to be attempting radical alterations to a professionally designed and carefully constructed engine. The response was to berate people and claim that your experience with two stroke motors meant that you were absolutely qualified to work with four cylinder engines.

Do you have the right tools? Apparently not. Dynamometer? Compression tester? Do you even have high precision weight scales? Micrometer?

I'm an excellent "shade tree" mechanic. If I had enough time, I can certainly replace a transmission, hone a cylinder, replace rings, and similar - but I don't do it. I depend on my car being running, and if I'm working on the car, I'm not earning a living. If I'm working on the car, I can't use it to get to a customer site. So I can't let my main car sit for several days while I disassemble things, clean, repair, and reassemble in-between jobs. If it's a massive job, I take it to a shop I trust, and I've never had them sit on it even overnight if the parts were available. (one required brake line, and that took three days to get, and they ended up fabricating one)

I certainly wouldn't attempt to overbore an engine, especially not an _aluminum block_, transverse mounted I-4 engine. I've now had _six_ of those four cylinder engines, both I and J, and I've spent more time inside of them than I've ever wanted to. That doesn't include the two V engines.

In this case, you're insisting that you want to "mill" the pistons, presumably to increase compression. From personal experience, that sort of thing can end up with your spark plugs being fired into the hood! Pushing the tolerances of the engine design is not a way to be safe - especially when the tolerances were designed to try to minimize the weight of the engine to increase fuel efficiency to satisfy the government.

Heck, the experiences of people on this forum (and presumably the Toyota Matrix forum) is that just trying to change the spark plugs from the OEM can cause problems, so the engines are apparently very carefully designed. (Which begs the question of why the wheels and tires aren't calibrated properly on the speedometer, but that's another thing entirely.)

As for the Matrix forum being busier? They made the cars for four additional years, so there are more "new car" owners that still have the vehicles. Look at where the Vibe forum was four years ago. Also, Toyota had the name cachet, and Pontiac didn't. (more fools them. I paid $2k less for my Vibe with less mileage on it than the identical Matrix at the Enterprise car sales lot.)

http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki ... nder_heads

zbyers
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by zbyers » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:48 am

Bookworm wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:04 pm
As for the Matrix forum being busier? They made the cars for four additional years, so there are more "new car" owners that still have the vehicles. Look at where the Vibe forum was four years ago. Also, Toyota had the name cachet, and Pontiac didn't. (more fools them. I paid $2k less for my Vibe with less mileage on it than the identical Matrix at the Enterprise car sales lot.)
More towards OP, but Toyota Nation is only busier because it's a forum for all Toyota's...So a Tacoma owner may cross over into the Corolla section if he's bored.

https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/
(2) '03 Bases, '03 GT, '04 GT, '04 AWD, '06 AWD, '07 Base, '17 Frontier CCLB
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Bookworm
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Re: Performance cam phaser for engine build

Post by Bookworm » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:40 am

zbyers wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:48 am
Bookworm wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:04 pm
As for the Matrix forum being busier? They made the cars for four additional years, so there are more "new car" owners that still have the vehicles. Look at where the Vibe forum was four years ago. Also, Toyota had the name cachet, and Pontiac didn't. (more fools them. I paid $2k less for my Vibe with less mileage on it than the identical Matrix at the Enterprise car sales lot.)
More towards OP, but Toyota Nation is only busier because it's a forum for all Toyota's...So a Tacoma owner may cross over into the Corolla section if he's bored.

https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/
You're right. I misread the forum name.

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