Trouble Code P0174 And Weird Rattle on 2006 Vibe

[cc333]

Hi All,

This is my first "real" post here (I've posted a couple times in the buy/sell sub forum)! When I found this site, I was really intrigued, as I never thought there would be an enthusiast forum for this car!

Anyway, we have one (hence my reason for joining), a 2006 2WD base model, bought new. We've driven it quite hard, and it now has approximately 190,000 miles on it.

What brings me here is a strange rattling sound coming from the engine compartment. I don't know if it's related to the rattle, but we've also had the Check Engine light come on, with a trouble code of P0174 (Torque Converter Clutch Solenoid: Performance or Stuck). We had the solenoid replaced, hoping it would fix this problem, but it hasn't. Every time we clear the code, it seems to reoccur approximately 50-150 miles thereafter (thus re engaging the CEL).

We subsequently took it to another repair place, and they say that it is possibly the result of very slight slippage in the transmission, affecting fourth gear (aka overdrive), and that it could get worse over time. Since it's so old now, with such high mileage, the mechanic didn't recommend paying +/-$3,000 to replace the transmission, instead suggesting that we simply drive it locally until it goes out completely, and buy a better car for longer distances.

So, I guess what I'm trying to ask is this: Is it truly indicative of a transmission problem (as I've read that this is tends to be an electronic glitch fairly often, and it has been known to return in very short order even after rebuilding/replacing the transmission), or is it some sort of sensor/ECU glitch/false alarm? If it is the transmission, how long could it last? It still seems to be operating perfectly, so I see no reason why it couldn't go another 200,000+ miles?

OK, so now the rattle. It's most pronounced when the car is cold, in gear, and the engine is running at about 1,000 RPMs +/-, and seemed to start happening shortly after we had the exhaust manifold replaced last summer. At first, it was only showing up when it was cold, but over the last few months, it seems to have gotten worse, so now it's pretty much constant. It seems to be coming from the right hand side of the compartment (looking out from inside), and is accompanied by a slight raw exhaust odor. At first I thought maybe it was a manifestation of a failing torque converter, but then I realized it couldn't be, since it's on the wrong side (the transmissin, and thus the torque converter, is on the opposite side) and I smell exhaust. Could this be a problem with the exhaust manifold again? If so, perhaps the bolts have worked loose and/or the gasket has failed? The mechanic noted that one mount was loose, and another has some cracking. could these be contributing as well?

Even though it's not 100% now (due to high mileage), it's still a very good car, and I'd like to ensure that it stays that way.

Also, I'm sorry for my wordiness. I hope some of you will be able to follow what I'm trying to say here.

Thanks,

c

[vibrologist]

Are you sure you stated the code correctly? Shouldn't it be P0741?

Maybe your catalytic converter is falling apart inside. I am just guessing.

[trb]

I'm assuming you had the PCM checked/changed from the recall? My son's 06 also has a rattle under the hood, usually when I take off from a stop for a couple of seconds. I haven't had a chance to look at it, but it sounds like my Mustang did when one of the converters broke apart internally. It would rattle at a specific RPM range and occasionally quiet down some after the car heated up. I guess the homeycomb expanded some and did not rattle as much when the exhaust heated up. I'm hoping his is just a heat shield or something since it only has about 65,000 miles.

I wonder if keeping the car out of OD would stop the CEL from coming on?

[Nasmfell]

[quote="cc333"]Hi All,

This is my first "real" post here (I've posted a couple times in the buy/sell sub forum)! When I found this site, I was really intrigued, as I never thought there would be an enthusiast forum for this car!

Anyway, we have one (hence my reason for joining), a 2006 2WD base model, bought new. We've driven it quite hard, and it now has approximately 190,000 miles on it.

What brings me here is a strange rattling sound coming from the engine compartment. I don't know if it's related to the rattle, but we've also had the Check Engine light come on, with a trouble code of P0174 (Torque Converter Clutch Solenoid: Performance or Stuck). We had the solenoid replaced, hoping it would fix this problem, but it hasn't. Every time we clear the code, it seems to reoccur approximately 50-150 miles thereafter (thus re engaging the CEL).

We subsequently took it to another repair place, and they say that it is possibly the result of very slight slippage in the transmission, affecting fourth gear (aka overdrive), and that it could get worse over time. Since it's so old now, with such high mileage, the mechanic didn't recommend paying +/-$3,000 to replace the transmission, instead suggesting that we simply drive it locally until it goes out completely, and buy a better car for longer distances.

So, I guess what I'm trying to ask is this: Is it truly indicative of a transmission problem (as I've read that this is tends to be an electronic glitch fairly often, and it has been known to return in very short order even after rebuilding/replacing the transmission), or is it some sort of sensor/ECU glitch/false alarm? If it is the transmission, how long could it last? It still seems to be operating perfectly, so I see no reason why it couldn't go another 200,000+ miles?

OK, so now the rattle. It's most pronounced when the car is cold, in gear, and the engine is running at about 1,000 RPMs +/-, and seemed to start happening shortly after we had the exhaust manifold replaced last summer. At first, it was only showing up when it was cold, but over the last few months, it seems to have gotten worse, so now it's pretty much constant. It seems to be coming from the right hand side of the compartment (looking out from inside), and is accompanied by a slight raw exhaust odor. At first I thought maybe it was a manifestation of a failing torque converter, but then I realized it couldn't be, since it's on the wrong side (the transmissin, and thus the torque converter, is on the opposite side) and I smell exhaust. Could this be a problem with the exhaust manifold again? If so, perhaps the bolts have worked loose and/or the gasket has failed? The mechanic noted that one mount was loose, and another has some cracking. could these be contributing as well?

Even though it's not 100% now (due to high mileage), it's still a very good car, and I'd like to ensure that it stays that way.

Also, I'm sorry for my wordiness. I hope some of you will be able to follow what I'm trying to say here.

Thanks,

c[/quote

Different car time as your mechanic suggested. At least you got 190K miles out of it. Read an interesting article where some comments bemoan how complicated today's cars are that the average person can't do much (if any) repairs.

[cc333]

Are you sure you stated the code correctly? Shouldn't it be P0741?

Oh, yes! P0741! Sorry....

Maybe your catalytic converter is falling apart inside. I am just guessing.

Do you think so? Would that explain the exhaust smell?

I'm assuming you had the PCM checked/changed from the recall?

Yes, we had that done a year or three ago.

My son's 06 also has a rattle under the hood, usually when I take off from a stop for a couple of seconds. I haven't had a chance to look at it, but it sounds like my Mustang did when one of the converters broke apart internally. It would rattle at a specific RPM range and occasionally quiet down some after the car heated up. I guess the homeycomb expanded some and did not rattle as much when the exhaust heated up. I'm hoping his is just a heat shield or something since it only has about 65,000 miles.

Yes, kind of like ours, except it's only really noticeable when maneuvering at low speed (like in a parking lot) or when taking off. However, I've listened more carefully, and I noticed that the rattle is there pretty much at all speeds (but it's especially apparent when the engine's RPMs are up, like when going 65 MPH). Are Catalytic converters particularly hard to remove/install? How can I determine for sure if it is the converter causing the noise?

I wonder if keeping the car out of OD would stop the CEL from coming on?

I wonder that myself, except for highway/freeway driving, the poor engine protests too much. I will certainly give it a try, though (especially now that I've finally gotten around to fixing the O/D button).

c

EDIT: Yes, Nasmfell, you're probably correct. However, as long as it's still operable, I'd like to keep it going as a local driving car (I figure it'll help cut down on wear and tear on our new car, since most local roads are quite lousy). And, if possible/practical, I intend to learn how to do most of these labor intensive repairs myself to save on labor costs (much of the cost is in labor, so I figure we can save at least 50% by doing my own repairs, plus I learn a lot about cars while I'm at it).

[trb]

Yes, kind of like ours, except it's only really noticeable when maneuvering at low speed (like in a parking lot) or when taking off. However, I've listened more carefully, and I noticed that the rattle is there pretty much at all speeds (but it's especially apparent when the engine's RPMs are up, like when going 65 MPH). Are Catalytic converters particularly hard to remove/install? How can I determine for sure if it is the converter causing the noise?

On mine, the shop put it on a lift and was able to bang on the converters; my Mustang has 4 on the H pipe between the exhaust manifolds and the mufflers. They were able to isolate it to just one of them and it had to be cut out and the new one welded in. I haven't looked at the ones on the Vibe, but I think it is on a separate pipe section that can be replaced with a whole new one. Of course it is more expensive than a universal one.

[vibrologist]

If the catalytic converter is falling apart internally it will not be very effective in taking care of unburned fuel. That means you will notice good old exhaust smell. Also the cc will not reach the correct operating temperature, something you could measure with a temperature probe. It should be much hotter at the out put end of the converter.
When a catalytic converter fails because of some fuel mixture problems the exhaust will smell like rotten eggs.

Put the car in P and let it idle, find access tot he catalytic converter and hold a piece of garden hose to it like a stethoscope. You can probably hear it rattle inside.

If the catalytic converter has been braking up the debris has been blown into the muffler as well. It is partially clogging the exhaust.

Good luck, keep us posted.

[Nasmfell]

Are you sure you stated the code correctly? Shouldn't it be P0741?

Oh, yes! P0741! Sorry....

Maybe your catalytic converter is falling apart inside. I am just guessing.

Do you think so? Would that explain the exhaust smell?

I'm assuming you had the PCM checked/changed from the recall?

Yes, we had that done a year or three ago.

My son's 06 also has a rattle under the hood, usually when I take off from a stop for a couple of seconds. I haven't had a chance to look at it, but it sounds like my Mustang did when one of the converters broke apart internally. It would rattle at a specific RPM range and occasionally quiet down some after the car heated up. I guess the homeycomb expanded some and did not rattle as much when the exhaust heated up. I'm hoping his is just a heat shield or something since it only has about 65,000 miles.

Yes, kind of like ours, except it's only really noticeable when maneuvering at low speed (like in a parking lot) or when taking off. However, I've listened more carefully, and I noticed that the rattle is there pretty much at all speeds (but it's especially apparent when the engine's RPMs are up, like when going 65 MPH). Are Catalytic converters particularly hard to remove/install? How can I determine for sure if it is the converter causing the noise?

I wonder if keeping the car out of OD would stop the CEL from coming on?

I wonder that myself, except for highway/freeway driving, the poor engine protests too much. I will certainly give it a try, though (especially now that I've finally gotten around to fixing the O/D button).

c

EDIT: Yes, Nasmfell, you're probably correct. However, as long as it's still operable, I'd like to keep it going as a local driving car (I figure it'll help cut down on wear and tear on our new car, since most local roads are quite lousy). And, if possible/practical, I intend to learn how to do most of these labor intensive repairs myself to save on labor costs (much of the cost is in labor, so I figure we can save at least 50% by doing my own repairs, plus I learn a lot about cars while I'm at it).

That's understandable, cc333. Good luck, I hope it's not major

[vibrologist]

We were mostly talking about internal damage to the catalytic converter. Before you tear into it check the heat shields everywhere.
Using a rubber mallet and banging gently on everything is a good way to find the source of rattling.

[cc333]

Hi,

Since the rattle doesn't seem to be affecting anything, I'll leave it alone for now, as I don't think it's related to the P0741 trouble code, which is the main reason for my posting here.

Anyway, I did some research on this issue, and it turns out that this code coming up at random on an otherwise perfectly functioning car is one of the less severe symptoms of a defective ECU (which, as you all probably know, affected Vibes, Matrices, and Corollas). Also in my research, I've read about at least two instances where in one the owner of the car had this code come up and replacing the suspect ECU didn't help (perhaps indicating a legitimate TCC solenoid/transmission issue?) and in another, the code showed up within days of ECU replacement where it had never come up before with the old ECU, which suggests to me that the replacement part was subject to the same defect.

That being said, we had our ECU replaced under the recall, and thinking back, it was shortly after that that we first noticed this code. Is it possible the replacement ECU is also defective? The local dealership isn't very honest, so maybe they lied about it?

If so, then it's a super easy fix (that I could do myself).

If not, well, it's back to square one.

Thoughts?

c

[cc333]

Nothing?

OK, well, I decided to look at the rattle again, and it's beginning to sound more like a binding pulley somewhere, because it's clearly coming from the front of the engine where the belt runs. At a little over 1,000 RPM with the A/C engaged, it makes a terrible noise that sounds less like a rattle (whic I thought it was initially) and more like a squawk with some high pitched squeaky overtones. Could this be caused by a failing belt tensioner pulley? If not, whet else? Water pump? It doesn't make the noise so loudly (although it is there) when the car's in park or neutral, and it only seems to happen above a certain RPM (if it were a bad water pump or other accessory, wouldn't the noise be more or less constant?)

And, before anyone asks, yes, the A/C compressor has been replaced (probably in vain), and thus ruled out as a problem.

As for the ECM, I'll just have to either a) wait for outright failure (which, from what I've read, can cause severe drivetrain damage, thus totaling the car) or b) spend $80-$100 for a remanufactured ECM and see what happens (if P0741 still shows up with a new ECM, it's definitely the transmission).

c

[lannvouivre]

Have you tried removing the drive belt and turning the pulleys by hand? That will allow you to tell definitely which one's having the issues.

[cc333]

I was thinking of that, but I need to figure out how first.

I've done it before on a '92 Ford Explorer and '98 Ford Windstar, and have a special tool for the job, so it can't be too difficult.

I'll try this and report back with my findings.

A question or two in the meantime: is it possible for a failing pulley to sound more or less normal at idle, yet make a racket at higher RPMs? And why would it not show up when the car isn't in gear (either with or without A/C engaged)?

c

p.s. This is a great place, by the way! With all of your help, I intend to keep this car going as long as it is practically possible!

[cc333]

I discovered how to remove the drive belt, but I don't have to, as it's obvious the tensioner is bad at this point (at slightly over 1,000 ROM, it actually "wobbles" and it squeaks violent.y; definitely time for a new one).

Now all I have to do is justify the cost....

Nothing terribly new regarding P0741. We've been driving it with the overdrive mostly off, and the CEL hasn't come on after 267 miles, so....

As an aside, is anyone on here located nearby in Northern California, should I ever need to collaborate face-to-face with someone?

c

[cc333]

Well, the cost was justified, and the tensioner has been replaced (we had a mechanic do it instead, as I wasn't sure if I could do it myself). It sounds good as new now, so the rattle is gone! Yay!!

He also found that the transmission fluid was low (!) and that it *might* contribute to the slight slippage that would cause the CEL to illuminate. So, he added some sort of additive that he thought may help (some sort of Lucas Oil thing), and I must say, it is a lot quieter now!

It has always whined rather loudly, especially between 50 and 55 MPH (even when new), and now I barely hear it.

We'll drive it normally (OD on full time) and see what happens...

I also looked at this thread over here, and it seems to detail one of the more common causes of P0741, and that it is actually rather insignificant (i.e., the car is still drivable, albeit with slightly lower MPGs). Changing out the fluid helped him, so maybe the low fluid was the cause? Don't know....

Even if the CEL comes on for the rest of all eternity, it doesn't seem like it'll amount to much (if I understand correctly).

Anyway, I'm glad I found this place, as it has proven to be an invaluable resource in my research.

c

[cc333]

OK, the light came on today after about 500 miles. Not bad!

Trouble is, after I reset it, it came on again after only 13.6 miles.

Oh, well. It's a common, but not very fatal problem it seems.

c

[Nasmfell]

[quote="cc333"]OK, the light came on today after about 500 miles. Not bad!

Trouble is, after I reset it, it came on again after only 13.6 miles.

Oh, well. It's a common, but not very fatal problem it seems.

c[/quote



New wheels time.

[cc333]

New wheels time.

We already got some. This is only a secondary/hobby car now.

Drive-ability is unaffected at this point, so I think I'll ignore it until something more obvious goes wrong.

Thanks!

c

p.s. There is this strange tendency for it to get stuck in third gear (it happened twice yesterday, both times shortly before the light came on each time). It's been this way from the factory, so I haven't been concerned about it. Do any of you think there's a connection?

[lannvouivre]

p.s. There is this strange tendency for it to get stuck in third gear (it happened twice yesterday, both times shortly before the light came on each time). It's been this way from the factory, so I haven't been concerned about it. Do any of you think there's a connection?

Probably. The way an automatic transmission works is with fluid pressure controlled by solenoids and valves, directed into pistons, which change the way the drive gears run. The drive gears consist of a sun gear in the middle, four planetary gears going around it, and a ring gear outside that.

Where are you located at, anyway? If you're in TX, I have an exhaust manifold that I can give you should yours fail, and I can also replace it for you.

[circuitsmith]

A good transmission tech should be able to hook a gauge to the transmission and check fluid pressure.
190,000 miles of hard driving is a decent distance.
How often has the trans fluid been changed? With hard use I woulda drained & refilled every 30k miles.

[cc333]

Yeah, we probably haven't changed it as often as we should've, but doing it from now on couldn't hurt, could it?

23,000 miles per year is kind of hard (I hadn't realized!)

Well, as long as it still drives OK, we're going to keep using it.

In case I haven't already, I must note that this code was popping up about three years ago, when the car had roughly 100k on it, which suggests that hard driving isn't *entirely* to blame, no?

c

[Nasmfell]

New wheels time.

We already got some. This is only a secondary/hobby car now.

Drive-ability is unaffected at this point, so I think I'll ignore it until something more obvious goes wrong.

Thanks!

c

p.s. There is this strange tendency for it to get stuck in third gear (it happened twice yesterday, both times shortly before the light came on each time). It's been this way from the factory, so I haven't been concerned about it. Do any of you think there's a connection?

You're welcome. It's good you have a back up car just in case.

[cc333]

Yes, and we've already put around 3,000 miles on our new car!

Anyway, P0741 is popping up like mad now, and I'm interested in some opinions.

OK, so, since becoming aware of what exactly the code is describing, I've familiarized myself with what the car feels like when the LTC engages (slight drop in RPM somewhere between 35-40 MPH), and it seems to perform flawlessly when operating at the lowest end of it's range of operation.

However, I have noticed that when going up a steep hill, the LTC will disengage with a rather sharp jolt (not every time, though; sometimes it seems to jump straight to third, and this is presumably why the code gets set). I hadn't noticed that before. Could this be a symptom of something serious? Can it be helped with an ATF change or two?

Otherwise, the transmission seems to shift fine (although, as I mentioned earlier, it has (and has always had, from the time we drove it off the lot) a tendency to get stuck in third, and quickly downshifting to second and upshifitng back to drive seems to nudge it out of its "rut" most of the time. Could this be a long-undetected defect?).

It's still a fine car, and I'm not giving up on it (I'll even learn how to change out the transmission myself, if it becomes necessary).

The one thing that keeps crossing my mind is the ECU. Could this be a manifestation of an ECU defect? Reading the recall notice, the things I'm describing (p0174 trouble code and harsh shifting) can possibly be early symptoms of ECU failure. Would it be prudent to consider changing it out, if only temporarily, to see if it clears up the problem?

Given the car's mileage, it's probably just wear and tear, but what if it's not?

I'd like to hear everyone's detailed thoughts on this!

c