2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

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JerryV
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2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by JerryV » Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:28 am

I thought I would start a new thread and try to put some pictures in it. I don't have the engine out yet, but I took the pan off. This is the underside with the balance shafts. Something knocked a hole in the casting.
Upper oil pan.jpg
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There is also a hole in the casting in front of the lower oil pan.
Hole in Upper Oil pan.jpg
Hole in Upper Oil pan.jpg (286.54 KiB) Viewed 1051 times
A bunch of debris in the oil pan.
Debris in oil pan.jpg
Debris in oil pan.jpg (179.81 KiB) Viewed 1051 times
A bent rod bolt in the mess.
Bent rod bolt.jpg
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I've been looking at options. A rebuilt longblock is probably the smart way to go. I see there are some places selling JDM (japanese domestic market) engines advertised as low miles. Haven't been able to find any good info on interchangeability though and I'm sure they don't come out of Vibes. A salvage yard is another option, but most of the ones available seem to have 150k miles or more so might not be in very good shape.

I will try to post some more as I get time to work on it.

Jerry

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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by Bookworm » Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:55 pm

I wouldn't worry so much about the mileage on the engine, especially if it's just 150k. My old one hit 300k (miles), and was still getting 29MPG in constant city traffic. If you buy a full engine, you can do a reasonable rebuild on it without spending a ton of dosh, and put it into place. (well, if you have a good engine stand)

From the looks of the pictures, it almost seems like something came _up_ into the engine through the oil pan. The outside hole seems to be bent inwards. That would be something like bouncing up and slamming down on a rock, or having a large object pivot as it was driven over.

Then, of course, the rod ate it.

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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by vibedrivermatt » Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:55 am

Wow ive never seen a sploaded vibe engine!
They must have forgot to put oil in it. As many of us 2.4l owners have experienced, these tend to drink oil. So, if you had one of these, never checked the oil or never changed the oil, eventually it would drink all its own oil and run dry, which i could see causing such a catastrophic failure.

Hopefully, you can find a wrecked vibe with a good engine in it for cheap if thats what youre looking to do. Thanks for sharing. I hope you continue to post pictures if you decide to go ahead with anything. Thats interdasting.
Last edited by vibedrivermatt on Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by tpollauf » Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:11 am

Interesting. Yeah, definitely take more pics as you tear this poor engine apart. Curious to see if any other components are damaged
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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by joatmon » Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:49 pm

Do you think the rod bolt somehow came out and got kicked around causing the other damage?

The last engine I rebuilt cost more in parts than a whole engine from a yard. I guess it depends on how long you expect to keep the car after its running again.

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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by JerryV » Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:30 pm

Had a little more time to work on it today and disconnected a bunch more stuff. I think I have everything loose except the motor mounts now. I still don't think it will come out without the transmission so I will put it on jack stands and pull the axles. I have an engine stand from a project a long time ago, but I will have to round up an engine hoist and make enough room to get it next to the car.
Engine disconnected.jpg
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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by Bookworm » Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:50 pm

vibedrivermatt wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:55 am
Wow ive never seen a sploaded vibe engine!
They must have forgot to put oil in it. As many of us 2.4l owners have experienced, these tend to drink oil. So, if you had one of these, never checked the oil or never changed the oil, eventually it would drink all its own oil and run dry, which i could see causing such a catastrophic failure.
I don't think that's it. Look at the second picture. That shows shearing bent _into_ the oil pan compartment, not outwards, as it would be if it was just the rod coming loose. I'm suspecting an impact from something underneath, then when the oil blew out - it ate itself.

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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by vibedrivermatt » Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:21 am

Bookworm wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:50 pm
I don't think that's it. Look at the second picture. That shows shearing bent _into_ the oil pan compartment, not outwards, as it would be if it was just the rod coming loose. I'm suspecting an impact from something underneath, then when the oil blew out - it ate itself.
You may be right. I just gave my best guess based on my personal experience with the engine. Perhaps the OP has a better insight as to what happened to it? The 2AZ is supposed to be pretty bullet proof. That things a camry engine.

Do you know what happened to it Jerry?

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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by jolt » Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:44 am

The hole in picture #2 looks to be from the inside to the outside, see edges of the break and how they are tapered. The bolt that is bent looks to be a rod bolt but that is just guessing as one can not determine it's relative size. This has all the signs of a connecting rod coming off or loose. Without knowing the history of the engine, it is hard to know what happened. I would expect to see more metal shavings in bottom of oil pan. As a motor runs out of oil, it takes a little time before the rod comes off. It has to grind itself up due to the lack of oil, get loose and over heat, and then break. Most all passenger cars are going to have a rod knock before it gets to that point and the driver will stop before it gets that bad. As the rod starts to seize to the crank before coming loose, there will be a noticeable drop in power from the engine also.

One of the OP's options was a rebuilt engine. Most rebuilt engines have a core change. This engine is not a rebuild able core, so he would have to factor that cost into the total for a rebuilt engine.

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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by Bookworm » Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:11 pm

Picture #1 is the inside of the bottom of the engine, from below. Picture #2 is from the outside, towards the same part. Note the bolt heads and the normal outside grime. Picture #3 is the inside of the oil pan, and Picture #4 is the bent bolt.

At least, that's what I'm seeing. The OP would have to clarify.

So, what I'm thinking is something smacked the underside of the engine (came down on a parking lot bumper, dropped due to a pothole and hit a rock, something swung upwards when driven over), and cracked a hole into the pan area. The car then blew the oil... and the rest went nuclear inside.

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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by JerryV » Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:36 am

vibedrivermatt wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:21 am
Bookworm wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:50 pm
I don't think that's it. Look at the second picture. That shows shearing bent _into_ the oil pan compartment, not outwards, as it would be if it was just the rod coming loose. I'm suspecting an impact from something underneath, then when the oil blew out - it ate itself.
You may be right. I just gave my best guess based on my personal experience with the engine. Perhaps the OP has a better insight as to what happened to it? The 2AZ is supposed to be pretty bullet proof. That things a camry engine.

Do you know what happened to it Jerry?
I don't know the whole story as I bought it from the step father of the driver and I wasn't too concerned because the price was right. It was sort of an impulse buy which frequently gets me into things I probably wouldn't do if given more consideration. It is a manual transmission so I suppose it would be possible to over rev it even if it has a rev limiter.

I don't think it was an external impact because there were no other signs of damage. The casting with the hole in it is pretty high up and somewhat protected by the bar that runs front to back under the engine. I couldn't really get a good picture of the hole until I got that out of the way.

With other commitments there isn't a lot of time to work on it right now so it may be another week or two until I can get it out of the car and on an engine stand for more disassembly. I have never done much work on Japanese vehicles before so figuring out how some of the snap together plastic bits come apart is a learning experience.

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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by joatmon » Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:27 am

JerryV wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:36 am
... figuring out how some of the snap together plastic bits come apart is a learning experience.
I hate that. Sometimes you'll read a procedure on how to fix or replace something on the car and think it looks straightforward, might take ten minutes, then you get hung up for two hours trying to solve some electrical connector, or trying to figure out how to access something no human could reach.

Good luck, keep us posted

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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by tpollauf » Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:13 am

Too bad you don't live closer to me Jerry as I'd lend you my three volume Helms manuals which would REALLY help you out in the engine rebuild process. You got a rare combination 2.4 with the manual tranny (same as my Vibe GT ;) ). Keep up the work and keep us informed.
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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by JerryV » Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:16 am

I am not familiar with Helms manuals. I checked their web site and don't see anything like that. They only had the owners manuals available.

I bought a copy of the GM service manual DVD on eBay a while back, but I haven't looked at it much yet. It seems hard to use with its crappy virtual machine interface. I wish it was just a good PDF file. I might try one of the online sites if I think it will help. $7 for a month of access doesn't seem too bad. Has anyone tried the Identifix service info?

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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by tpollauf » Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:08 pm

JerryV wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:16 am
I am not familiar with Helms manuals.

Here's what they look like. Bought these immediately after purchasing my vibe in 2009 for a hefty $150. Then a year or two later they were going for $200. Although not 100% accurate (several 2008 sketches & descriptions still in these volumes) it was worth it for me.

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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by vibedrivermatt » Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:43 pm

I bought those pink phonebooks too. It was kinda steep $150 for the 3 book set but i figured it would pay for itself when my vibe needed a clutch replacement. Im just at over 90k now and shes ready for a new clutch soon, especially with the way ive beem driving it anyway. Im needing to baby it now with the shifting so she doesnt mash her synchro gears to oblivion .

I'll be using those books for sure for the clutch job. Im gonna diy all the way bros. I'll post a big pic happy thread about it too. It should be fun.

OP if you need any screen shots of pages feel free to ask. I'll post em. I doubt there are any concerns sharing the info. Its not like theres a lot of concern over these dated cars. I bet the Toyota folks will find it heartwarming at the least.

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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by JerryV » Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:37 am

I appreciate the offers, guys! Is there a procedure in there for engine removal that shows whether or not a 2.4L can be taken out the top without the transmission? My guess is it can't because there is only about an inch from the engine to the body on the passenger side and I am sure the clutch sticks inside the bell housing more than that. I know the preferred method would be to drop the subframe and lift the body off of it, but that requires a lift and removing the exhaust system.

Just looking at it, I see the transmission hangs under the body about an inch on the drivers side so it is going to be tight taking them out together too. For doing the clutch, I'm guessing you can drop the subframe and pull the transmission out the drivers side while leaving the engine in place. I can probably look that up in the service manual DVD.

Hoping to get some more done on mine this weekend.

Thanks,
Jerry

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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by zbyers » Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:09 pm

JerryV wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:37 am
Just looking at it, I see the transmission hangs under the body about an inch on the drivers side so it is going to be tight taking them out together too. For doing the clutch, I'm guessing you can drop the subframe and pull the transmission out the drivers side while leaving the engine in place. I can probably look that up in the service manual DVD.
i know when doing the clutch, you should be able to just remove the trans, leaving the engine in place and resting on the subframe. You shouldn't have to remove subframe to do the clutch.

Not 100% positive if you can pull engine/trans from the top, but I believe you can. You may have to have a second set of hands to help guide things and maneuver it as needed.
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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by Weimarman » Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:11 pm

Pulled mine out the top with trans. Very easy. 1st engine swap. Got a 65k donor engine from a 2015 Scion xB. Japanese built engine. Direct swap. No timing chain cover swap, and engines mounts perfect. Only thing I had to swap was the passenger side CV axle support.

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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by tpollauf » Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:19 am

Weimarman wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:11 pm
Pulled mine out the top with trans. Very easy. 1st engine swap. Got a 65k donor engine from a 2015 Scion xB. Japanese built engine. Direct swap. No timing chain cover swap, and engines mounts perfect. Only thing I had to swap was the passenger side CV axle support.
That's good to know. Fill us in on your dilemma and why you needed to replace the engine. What $$$ did you have in this swap? Mileage on car? thanks ;)
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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by Weimarman » Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:37 am

Guy I bought from said it had spun bearings. He had torn the engine apart, top and bottom. Pieces in yard, on seats, and in back hatch. Only 85k on odometer. Said it had been sitting for a year. Easier for me to just swap engine out with complete motor. Think they ran it low on oil. Tires were shot. Brakes were probably original, barely any material left. Maintenance was not his strong suit. 65k 2azfe cost $1170 shipped. New brakes, tires, and floor mats, $500. Oh, car cost $1500. Some pics in his yard.
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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by KingKrab65 » Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:02 am

WOW, you got one clean car (body wise, not interior). That should last you forever and a day.

Congratulations on all of your hard work to get it going.
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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by zbyers » Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:09 am

look at all that clearance with no motor!
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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by JerryV » Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:43 pm

Weimarman wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:11 pm
Pulled mine out the top with trans. Very easy. 1st engine swap. Got a 65k donor engine from a 2015 Scion xB. Japanese built engine. Direct swap. No timing chain cover swap, and engines mounts perfect. Only thing I had to swap was the passenger side CV axle support.
Excellent! Thanks for the info. Was yours a JDM motor or salvage yard? I was looking at pictures of some motors and I noticed that there didn't seem to be the spot for the motor mount on the timing cover. I assume that is what you meant about the timing cover swap. Is yours a 5 speed manual too?

I have only been able to work on mine a couple hours here and there. It seems to be taking a long time. I had quite a bit of trouble getting the axles out; especially the passenger side with that #@%# bearing support. Finally had to take the support off the engine, pry it out far enough to clear the pins and whack on it to clear the transmission. Hoping I can put it in a press and get the bearing out so it will go back together easier.

Jerry

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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by tpollauf » Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:11 pm

Less than $4k for a 2009 Vibe Gt .... Nice :D Lots of labor involved on your part though. This should last you decades if well taken care of. Nice find & great work so far :P
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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by JerryV » Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:46 pm

Wow was that bearing ever stuck in the support. Luckily, I have access to some equipment at work for situations like this. The press is essentially a big frame with a hydraulic bottle jack to push on things. I set it up with supports on the bearing housing and started pumping. I was afraid the casting was going to break, but finally it went BANG and moved a little. More pumping and some smaller bangs and it finally dropped out. There is no way it would have come out the way it is supposed to with the casting bolted to the engine. Its impossible to get that kind of force on it.
Passenger side axle.jpg
Passenger side axle.jpg (109.49 KiB) Viewed 500 times
You can see how much corrosion is on it. The bearing still spins ok and the joints feel tight.
Axle shaft bearing.jpg
Axle shaft bearing.jpg (143.46 KiB) Viewed 500 times
Interesting that the outer shaft is coated and still looks like new while the inner is fully rusted. I will have to clean up the bearing and the casting before putting it back together.

Jerry

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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by Weimarman » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:57 am

JerryV wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:43 pm
Weimarman wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:11 pm
Pulled mine out the top with trans. Very easy. 1st engine swap. Got a 65k donor engine from a 2015 Scion xB. Japanese built engine. Direct swap. No timing chain cover swap, and engines mounts perfect. Only thing I had to swap was the passenger side CV axle support.
Excellent! Thanks for the info. Was yours a JDM motor or salvage yard? I was looking at pictures of some motors and I noticed that there didn't seem to be the spot for the motor mount on the timing cover. I assume that is what you meant about the timing cover swap. Is yours a 5 speed manual too?

I have only been able to work on mine a couple hours here and there. It seems to be taking a long time. I had quite a bit of trouble getting the axles out; especially the passenger side with that #@%# bearing support. Finally had to take the support off the engine, pry it out far enough to clear the pins and whack on it to clear the transmission. Hoping I can put it in a press and get the bearing out so it will go back together easier.

Jerry
Mine is automatic. Came from salvage yard. Very detailed, with lots of pics of car and engine. I had no problem with passenger axle. Just unbolted the support from engine and removed whole. In great shape (GA car, 85k miles), so no need to separate support from axle. My problem was driver's side. Ended up leaving axle in transmission. Lowering car to ground, and pulling engine, transmission, and axle all out at once. Of course, once out, axle was easily removed.
I noticed all jdm motors had the same timing cover mounting bracket as my wife's Solara, and they said you would have to swap oil pan also. The Vibe, Matrix, and Scion XB have matching timing covers and mounts.

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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by Weimarman » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:08 pm

tpollauf wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:11 pm
Less than $4k for a 2009 Vibe Gt .... Nice :D Lots of labor involved on your part though. This should last you decades if well taken care of. Nice find & great work so far :P
Thanks. Good amount of work. Did most of it with my son. Was a great learning experience for both of us. A lot of satisfaction at the end of it.

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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by Pauls325 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:24 pm

Might be late to the party but the rod bolt seems to say a lot, looks similar to a nail pulled out of a board with the claw of a hammer (replace the claw of the hammer with the rod end) that crank has tons of leverage i would guess there is a connecting rod with the threads pulled right out of it.
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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by JerryV » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:45 pm

Weimarman wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:57 am

Mine is automatic. Came from salvage yard. Very detailed, with lots of pics of car and engine. I had no problem with passenger axle. Just unbolted the support from engine and removed whole. In great shape (GA car, 85k miles), so no need to separate support from axle. My problem was driver's side. Ended up leaving axle in transmission. Lowering car to ground, and pulling engine, transmission, and axle all out at once. Of course, once out, axle was easily removed.
I noticed all jdm motors had the same timing cover mounting bracket as my wife's Solara, and they said you would have to swap oil pan also. The Vibe, Matrix, and Scion XB have matching timing covers and mounts.
Sounds like a good deal. Mine had 155k and winters in Minnesota with the great salt baths the state provides. A GA car probably has no corrosion anywhere. If I ever do something like this again, I will look for a southern vehicle.

The drivers side axle was a bit difficult, but once I got the right bar in there, it popped out. The passenger side has the bearing support bolted to the engine and a sort of a snap ring to hold the bearing in the support. Besides the bolts there were two dowel pins holding the support in place on the engine. I had to pry on it to clear the pins and then the shaft bound in the transmission. A little persuasion was needed for it to slide out. I saw a video where one was removed by using a drift on the CV bell so I tried that first with no results.

Jerry

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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by JerryV » Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:53 pm

We are on lockdown here so I have had some more time to work on my project. I got the engine out and pulled the transmission off. Then the clutch and flywheel. Some more bits of aluminum fell out and I found where the rod had punched through the side of the block.
Crank end.jpg
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Close up
Hole in block.jpg
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Better picture of upper oil pan
Hole in Upper Oil pan close up.jpg
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In this last picture, it is easier to see that the hole was made from something coming from the inside rather than hit from the bottom.

Anyway, the engine is now officially junk. I was hoping to at least save the block and rebuild it with whatever parts were needed so I would have a like new engine, but I think a used engine is my best option now.

Just for fun, I tried to get the upper oil pan off so I could get pictures of the rest of the damage, but it appears i need a 12mm allen wrench which I didn't have. Maybe I can borrow one on Monday.

Jerry

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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by jolt » Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:35 am

Of the picture with part of the rod sticking out, you see how dark it is on the rod where the bearing insert would go in the rod, that is carbon/burnt oil on the rod from the rod over heating. This has all the classic signs of running the engine out of oil. The rod that is thrown off is the rod that is the furthest from the oil pump, starved of oil. As oil volume and pressure drop from lack of oil, what little that does get picked up goes to the rods closest to the oil pump. this starves the rods furthest from the oil pump so those rods are the first ones to go.

You will want to look for a 2010 or newer motor if possible as the piston issues/oil usage where fixed by then in the 2.4L engines.

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Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by Weimarman » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:03 pm

JerryV wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:53 pm
We are on lockdown here so I have had some more time to work on my project.

Anyway, the engine is now officially junk. I was hoping to at least save the block and rebuild it with whatever parts were needed so I would have a like new engine, but I think a used engine is my best option now.


Jerry
Too bad you're not closer. I would donate the engine I removed for your rebuild. Just more work than I was up for!

JerryV
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:19 am
Location: Minnesota

Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by JerryV » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:37 pm

Weimarman wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:03 pm

Too bad you're not closer. I would donate the engine I removed for your rebuild. Just more work than I was up for!
Yes, it is too bad. I would certainly like to check it out.

Jerry

JerryV
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:19 am
Location: Minnesota

Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by JerryV » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:51 pm

Borrowed a 12mm allen socket so I could remove the threaded nipple for the oil filter. There is a bolt above that holding the castings together.

Jolt may be right about running out of oil. The number 4 crank journal is pretty beat up. No sign of the rod cap so I'm thinking that it exited through the hole in the upper oil pan.
Number 4 Crank Journal.jpg
Number 4 Crank Journal.jpg (139.56 KiB) Viewed 411 times
The number 3 rod took out the cooling oil nozzle for that piston when it punched the block. That is a broken socket head cap screw in the picture. The head fell out when I took the pan off. The nozzle wasn't there.
Number 4 Rod.jpg
Number 4 Rod.jpg (87.52 KiB) Viewed 411 times
There might be another explanation for oiling problems though. The balance shafts in the upper pan are driven off the crank with a fiber gear. Part of it is missing and I did notice some fibers in the oil pump pickup earlier. It could be that the oil flow was blocked and took out the rod.
Balance shafts drive.jpg
Balance shafts drive.jpg (176.32 KiB) Viewed 411 times
I'm still evaluating options for a replacement.

Jerry

jolt
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Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:07 am
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota

Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by jolt » Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:38 am

Does the balance shafts turn over or are they seized? If the shaft will not turn over then the gear will be taken out too. One of the rods and/or rod parts may have wedged into the balance shafts and locked them causing the gear to break.

These are questions that do not really matter because the motor is junk from the first picture. You have nothing to save here and the only reason to take it apart is to learn more about the motor design.

JerryV
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:19 am
Location: Minnesota

Re: 2.4L 2AZFE post mortem

Post by JerryV » Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:35 am

The balance shafts will turn. I rotated them a little to take the picture so that the broken gear would be visible. Until I rotated it, I wasn't sure how it worked because I only saw the little nubs on the shaft.

I agree that the motor is junk. If it didn't have the hole in the main block I might have tried to get a replacement upper oil pan and rebuild it. It is an interesting motor though, and I did want to see the internals.

Jerry

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