Cold Morning Starting

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KingKrab65
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Cold Morning Starting

Post by KingKrab65 »

The temperatures here in the Carolinas have been falling the past several weeks. This will be the first winter I have owned my Vibe. Last week, one of the mornings temps was down about 35 degrees. My Vibe's engine turn over and tried to start but stalled. The motor kicked on liked someone had dropped a cap full of gas down it then starved it. After a couple of more attempts with the same result, I decided to try something different. I pressed the gas pedal down three times (just like the old carburetor days) and the motor slogged to life. I had been out of town and hadn't driven it for a week so I attributed it to the layoff.

This morning the temp was down close to 32 degrees and I had the same thing happen. I ended up holding the gas pedal about a third of the way down to get it to start.

It doesn't seem like a charge/battery issue to me. I have already changed my spark plugs and ignition coils so I don't think it is that. I am wondering if it is a fueling issue? Anybody have any ideas about what it could be?
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KingKrab65
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Re: Cold Morning Starting

Post by KingKrab65 »

Does the 1.8L have a Cold Start Injector? I can't seem to find one past the 1990's for Toyota.
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vibrologist
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Re: Cold Morning Starting

Post by vibrologist »

Could be fuel pressure. Could be a vacuum leak that hasn't thrown a code yet. Intake manifold gasket tends to go bad.
It never hurts to clean contacts at the battery and also the ground connections wherever they are.
I never heard of a cold start injector. Everything is figured out by the computer and signaled to the regular injectors. The injectors could be dirty too.
Another possibility is the ECT- sensor being faulty.
Last edited by vibrologist on Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jolt
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Re: Cold Morning Starting

Post by jolt »

Weak fuel pressure when starting, engine temp senor that is off in reading actual temp of engine, or a MAP sensor that is dirty or off in reading air flow to engine would be my guesses given the info you provided. There is no cold start fuel injector. Does the "Check Engine" light work? It should be lighted when the key is in the "ON" position and the engine NOT running. Another guess is a bad or leaky fuel injector.
KingKrab65
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Re: Cold Morning Starting

Post by KingKrab65 »

vibrologist wrote:Could be fuel pressure. Could be a vacuum leak that hasn't thrown a code yet. Intake manifold gasket tends to go bad.
It never hurts to clean contacts at the battery and also the ground connections wherever they are.
I never heard of a cold start injector. Everything is figured out by the computer and signaled tot he regular injectors. The injectors could be dirty too.
Another possibility is the ECT- sensor being faulty.
Up until yesterday, I had not heard of a cold start injector either. https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/sy ... t-injector They seemed to be popular with Toyota & BMW up until about 2000. I had 1992 Toyota Paseo but it didn't have one but the Camry and Corolla did.

My Vibe started as usual for my ride home last night and this morning (the temp is 40 degrees). So, I have to believe that it has something to do with really cold temp and possible fuel issue. Maybe the pressure going the fuel injectors is effected by the cold. My Paseo fuel mileage and performance always dropped in the winter time.

I stuck the OBD II reader on last night just to see if something rang up. I got a yellow P0300 with additional 301, 302, 303, and 304. I have a feeling that is related to me depressing the accelerator while trying to start it yesterday.
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KingKrab65
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Re: Cold Morning Starting

Post by KingKrab65 »

jolt wrote:Weak fuel pressure when starting, engine temp senor that is off in reading actual temp of engine, or a MAP sensor that is dirty or off in reading air flow to engine would be my guesses given the info you provided. There is no cold start fuel injector. Does the "Check Engine" light work? It should be lighted when the key is in the "ON" position and the engine NOT running. Another guess is a bad or leaky fuel injector.
I didn't have any issues starting last night and this morning (40 degrees this morning). I have a feeling you are correct regarding the fuel pressure. I will have to look into a to monitor that. Cold contracts so maybe is doing something to the fuel injector opening or the fuel itself, maybe? I filled the tank up this morning and ordered some BG 44k to clean out the fuel system. It will be getting progressively warmer for the next week, so I can't tell for sure.

In the last two months I have replaced: the intake manifold and gasket, the IAC and gasket, throttle body and gasket, PCV and hose, cleaned the MAF sensor, replaced all spark plugs and coil packs, and added a CAI.

The check engine light does come on with the key in the on position. I ran the OBD II scanner last night and it rang up a P0300 with each cylinder getting its own code. But I believe that is related to the way I started the Vibe up yesterday morning with a foot one third of the way on the accelerator.
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vibrologist
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Re: Cold Morning Starting

Post by vibrologist »

and added a CAI
That could be the problem. I am not saying it is. If you still have the original snorkel put it in. Sometimes the airflow hits the MAF sensor different enough to fool the sensor.
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KingKrab65
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Re: Cold Morning Starting

Post by KingKrab65 »

vibrologist wrote:
and added a CAI
That could be the problem. I am not saying it is. If you still have the original snorkel put it in. Sometimes the airflow hits the MAF sensor different enough to fool the sensor.
That's a thought. I had the throttle body and intake manifold bored out. I put the CAI at the same time that I installed the bored out throttle body and intake manifold. I finally got the idle settled down in the last month.

I was wondering about resetting the computer again since the air is getting cooler. I am not super familiar with the nuance of the MAF and how sensitive they are to atmospheric conditions. There is lots of humidity here in Charlotte in the summer. The air thins out in the winter time. Would the MAF take that into account when it is regulating or do they just do the air flow?
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Re: Cold Morning Starting

Post by vibrologist »

I had the throttle body and intake manifold bored out.
You didn't tell us anything about your mods in the first post, KingKrab65. Showing no pride at all ;) .

It's too much of good thing. At first the computer uses preset data. Once the ECT tells the computer it has warmed up it will use actual data of the various sensors. Since the factory data assume a factory intake it calculates too little fuel for your modified engine. Resetting the computer will not help your situation because the preset data are not affected. Go back to a stock TB, my friend. You can try the CAI with the stock TB. If that does not work go back to the stock intake as well.
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KingKrab65
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Re: Cold Morning Starting

Post by KingKrab65 »

vibrologist wrote:
I had the throttle body and intake manifold bored out.
You didn't tell us anything about your mods in the first post, KingKrab65. Showing no pride at all ;) .
I couldn't have a sleeper if I went around telling everyone what I did. :) I think I mentioned that I also had to replace the IAC on the bored out throttle body.

I guess the puzzling thing for me about the MAF is the measuring. At start up, when this seems to be happening, what difference would it make to the MAF (or computer) if the sensor was in the standard air intake tube or the larger CAI? The temperature and humidity level would be the same in both, I would think. The limited amount of cold air moving through in the quick start response would be the only variable due to the tube diameter. Would that play such a big part in the start up?

This morning the temp was closer to 50 degrees. I didn't have an issue at all with starting the Vibe up. I am sure that the temp will drop again in the next week or so. I am going to see if this happen again when it is close to freezing before switching things back out.

Thanks for you response and solution! I appreciate the effort.
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Re: Cold Morning Starting

Post by vibrologist »

At start up, when this seems to be happening, what difference would it make to the MAF (or computer) if the sensor was in the standard air intake tube or the larger CAI?
That's the point: at start up it does NOT use the MAF sensor. It assumes it gets a breeze through the factory straw but it really gets a storm through your stove pipe. It's running too lean. You don't get a code because the monitors will only start monitoring when the temperature is up. By that time the computer uses life data and the lean condition is corrected.

Once it is warm it will use the MAF sensor. Now look at the MAF sensor and compare it to the diameter of the intake. Right: it is much smaller and only measures a part of the the air that goes through. The computer uses a formula to calculate the actual amount of air. Since your pipe is much bigger and the formula is based on the original pipe it figures wrong. I bet the HO2 sensors help to compensate that error - until it can't compensate any more.
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jolt
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Re: Cold Morning Starting

Post by jolt »

Google "Open loop and Closed loop". Put it all back stock and it will be happy again. With the custom air flow, you have changed the whole air/fuel curve for the engine and will need a custom computer with adjustable software so you can tweak the air/fuel curve (fuel map) to your custom induction system. I would guess that it would cost more then the car, as it would be a one off design that does not exist for the Vibe.
jayoldschool
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Re: Cold Morning Starting

Post by jayoldschool »

lol... 35F... "cold"

Get back to me when it won't start at -35C. Mine never had a problem up here...
KingKrab65
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Re: Cold Morning Starting

Post by KingKrab65 »

jolt wrote:Google "Open loop and Closed loop". Put it all back stock and it will be happy again. With the custom air flow, you have changed the whole air/fuel curve for the engine and will need a custom computer with adjustable software so you can tweak the air/fuel curve (fuel map) to your custom induction system. I would guess that it would cost more then the car, as it would be a one off design that does not exist for the Vibe.

This is a HUGE disappointment. This is one of the reasons why I got a first generation Vibe was to be able to play around with it and add things. If it has to be left static, that's not much fun. I am surprised that there isn't a tune program that would alter this.

I guess what is confusing about running a CAI is because I got this off of this site: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=19315. Why does this come up if it doesn't work? I run my pick-up with a bored out throttle body and CAI (2005 Dakota) and it does not have a cold start issue.

I guess I have to decide whether I want to keep it or sell it now since I have to put it back to stock.
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KingKrab65
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Re: Cold Morning Starting

Post by KingKrab65 »

jayoldschool wrote:Get back to me when it won't start at -35C. Mine never had a problem up here...
The 30 degree weather is cold here. This is why I work with eight people from Cleveland, six people from Rochester, and three from Minneapolis. :D
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Re: Cold Morning Starting

Post by vibrologist »

I guess what is confusing about running a CAI is because I got this off of this site: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=19315. Why does this come up if it doesn't work?
maybe it works with the E-manage parts by Greddy that are listed there as well.

I am not saying it does, I don't know; and I don't care. These cars are intended to be practical econo boxes. If used as such they are great!
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jayoldschool
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Re: Cold Morning Starting

Post by jayoldschool »

There are other posts on this forum that CAI installs have caused issues and have resulted in CEL. I remember one recently where the user finally gave up, converted the car back to stock intake plumbing and put the aftermarket intake up for sale. That's where I would start...
jolt
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Re: Cold Morning Starting

Post by jolt »

jayoldschool wrote:There are other posts on this forum that CAI installs have caused issues and have resulted in CEL. I remember one recently where the user finally gave up, converted the car back to stock intake plumbing and put the aftermarket intake up for sale. That's where I would start...
That is why putting these things on the car really gain very little because if they made a difference, you have upset the induction system and it will have problems. These things are more of a placebo effect then anything else. The engine is designed to work with the parts it has. You change or modify one thing and you have upset the design, expect problems. Getting more air does nothing unless the system was lacking air to begin with. It is the weak link in the chain type of thing. If you can not get fuel with the air, it just screwed up the system. Fuel and air make power. Air alone does not make power.
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