Hello new member in need of help

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Chris80648
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Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:27 pm

Hello new member in need of help

Post by Chris80648 »

What an embarrassing way to introduce myself. I have a 2006 base with 162,000 miles on it to which I have changed oil every 5,000 miles (roughly). The car ran beautifully. Well this last time, as I discovered a week later, I added too much oil by 1.25 quarts maybe?. I always check the dip stick afterwards and I would have put money down that I had the correct amount. The car ran perfectly for a week. Then one morning it wouldn't start. I tried for a while, got it started, and went to the auto parts store. We got codes p0102, p0113, p0300, p0301, p0302, and p0420.
I changed the MAF which did not help. The auto store took it back and I put the old one back in. I changed the cam position sensor even though it tested electrically OK (guess I needed to change something) that had no affect on anything. I checked the crank sensor which is working. I changed the pre-cat o2 sensor, changed the plugs, noid checked the injectors, checked spark on all cylinders all which showed good signs. But still no start. I finally called my local machine shop for help in finding an ecu because although I had signals, I figured they were not firing at the right time ( not a single auto parts store could figure out which one to order BTW . which probably saved me some money) He asked about compression to which I had not checked. While doing so I discovered my new plugs were fouled very badly and oil was very slowly leaking into the plug locations. So, I checked the dip stick and found it was about 1/4" above the full mark. I immediately drained off the excess oil, cleaned the plugs (with a propane torch) and got the car started. The compression checks from the warm engine were at 150 to 160 psi which held steady over a minute on all cylinders. I do hear a single pop as I checked each cylinder. I did bore scope all cylinders and every thing looked like a non- stick frying pan.
My problem now (aside from the fact that the car belongs to my girlfriend ( and yes, I fessed up to what I did)) from a cold start the car blows white smoke which seems to go away after warming up. I added fuel injector cleaner yesterday (Lucas. I wanted redline but couldn't find any ). The engine runs at about 1000 rpm for a few seconds then goes to idle about 600 to 700 rpm then sputters and dies. After a bit of doing this the engine warms the smoke goes away and it will idle quite nicely. But the second I touch the gas peddle the engine bogs down I let off the gas and it idles again. I drove it yesterday and it ran well except for starting from a dead stop. The car hesitates, I play with the gas quite a bit and as it starts to roll, then finally catches and goes. I think it still misses a bit as well at 2000 to 3000 rpm. Sorry for the book, but I wanted to be as complete as possible. I would appreciate any help, suggestions, jokes about my competency etc. Thanks Everyone. I've read extensively through the site, found a lot of info but it appears I need some help still.
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vibrologist
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by vibrologist »

When you say the internals looked like non-stick frying pan you meant they looked black, not metallic?
Blackness would indicate carbon deposits. That will affect the compression and oil control rings. If that is the case I would try a SeaFoam Treatment. Follow the instructions on the bottle. However, don't do this in your beautifully manicured neighborhood. Go in a industrial area during the off-hours. It stinks and makes a big white cloud at the tail pipe. You use 1/3 sucked into the intake through a vacuum line (brake booster hose), 1/3 int the tank and 1/3 into the oil. After about 200 miles of driving change the oil. Do the oil and fuel treatments again.

Hopefully the solvents will remove the black stuff and bring the performance back.

Consider new plugs as well. Make sure there is no oil on the bottom of the spark plug tubes. It is also possible that some oil ended up in the intake plenum via the PCV. I think I would change the PCV valve as well.
Vibrologist
'05 Vibe

"It is important to know the difference between 'accurate' and 'precise' even if you are neither!"

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=43476
Chris80648
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Chris80648 »

Thank you for the advice. I will give that a try and post the results.
Chris80648
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Chris80648 »

Hi again,

I tried the Seafoam, but haven't been able to travel any major distance for safety reasons. From a stop I step on the gas slightly and it seems to want to stall it takes a lot of foot play to get it moving. So going through intersections to get to the freway is not a good idea. Managed about 20+ miles.
Pulled plugs again, which were a bit dirty again. Finally decided to pull the throttle body and intake. They were coated in oil. I cleaned these parts as best as I could. Now I am reinstalling parts now. I hope this helps. Question for the moderator or anyone who knows, should I have posted this here? Should I post in a different forum? Trying not to break any etiquette. Thanks again.
Chris80648
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Chris80648 »

Parts cleaned and reinstalled. New plugs put in. Engine runs the same. I installed an aftermarket pre cat O2 sensor. Can this be the problem? Both O2 sensors are probably coated in carbon. Would these affect the low rpms and horsepower? Can they be cleaned?
Thank you
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vibrologist
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by vibrologist »

Chris80648 wrote:Parts cleaned and reinstalled. New plugs put in. Engine runs the same. I installed an aftermarket pre cat O2 sensor. Can this be the problem? Both O2 sensors are probably coated in carbon. Would these affect the low rpms and horsepower? Can they be cleaned?
Thank you
Good questions. I think you can clean them. However i also think you got a lot of oil into the catalytic converter. I thought about that the other night. That restricts the flow and causes your misfiring.
Since you and I don't know how much oil ended up in the catalytic converter(s) the safest would be to remove them and wash them out.
You can wash them with detergent. The HO2 sensors probably can be washed as well. I would probably use Lacquer Thinner.

There is also a Youtube by ScottyKilmer on how to clean a converter with lacquer thinner. Remember: Lacquer Thinner , not Paint Thinner
https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/pl ... mp=yhs-002

I am afraid you have too much oil in the system to blow it out that way.
Vibrologist
'05 Vibe

"It is important to know the difference between 'accurate' and 'precise' even if you are neither!"

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=43476
Chris80648
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Chris80648 »

Thank you. Guess I'm removing the converter next. I appreciate all your advice.
Salsa Guy
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Salsa Guy »

The 06 was under the ECU recall. Has it been replaced?
05 Matrix XR 4WD and 03 Vibe GT
"If you want Government to solve your problems, then you are the problem!" BMSR
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Chris80648
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Chris80648 »

I called Pontiac and they said there are no recalls covering my car.
Salsa Guy
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Salsa Guy »

Did you verify it has been done?
05 Matrix XR 4WD and 03 Vibe GT
"If you want Government to solve your problems, then you are the problem!" BMSR
Trix MODS: SRI w/ AEM filter, Vibrant/Magnaflow Cat-back, Alutec Lightweight Crank Pulley
GT MODS: Cosmo SRI, DRL, Auto Stop
Chris80648
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Chris80648 »

No, I did not verify that the ecu has been changed. The guy asked for the last eight numbers of my vin looked it up then told me that nothing was covered anymore. I saw no point in arguing with the guy as it would only have got me no where. My girlfriend is the only owner and she tells me that no such repair has been done to the car. I understand though that only certain OEM numbers were defective. And my ecu also says Toyota on it if that makes a difference. I'm certain that the engine and attached sensors are good. At least I hope the 150 psi per cylinder is a good compression number. The needle makes large steady jumps on its way to 150 and holds that pressure until released. Getting a bit frustrated but will work on the exhaust emission system. The car is not throwing codes for the converter nor the HO2 sensors nor the ecu. I just cleaned the MAF sensor with MAF cleaner. I'm hoping that with everything cleaned out and checked that the problem will be corrected. If not I will research the ECU further. (After throwing a royal fit) Thank you for the heads up.
mikevibegt
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by mikevibegt »

Hello I just want to try to help I have read your first post, you said you swore you put right amount of oil, my doubts are next, check level of your antifreeze, did it go down?? speaking from experience here, if head gasket failed between cylinders 1 and 2 it could dump antifreeze into oil return and directly into your crank case.I know this is most likely not, just so you know i do not have your car in front of myself to check it. Also i would check Fuel pressure, Making sure it is up to specification and also check it with key on and car not started-if it goes up and then within seconds drops down-it could be leaky fuel injector.Cleaning that Maf is good idea anyhow- specially if you are using K&N air filter- they trow oil onto the MAF,Maf will cause miss fire, you need obd2 reader with live data to check maf.Let us know how you do it, do not trow parts on it these cars now days are so finely tuned that anything will trow them off. Oh also do pull test on wires leading to the maf sensor- Making sure there is good connection. you got good car there and do not blame yourself here because you did not do it by adding maybe more oil then you should have, i think this is just bad coincidence.
Chris80648
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Chris80648 »

Thank you for the input. I should check fuel pressure, but I have just purchased a compression tester and spark testers and noid lights. This weekend will be dropping the converter and cleaning that. If the problem remains I will look into fuel pressure. I removed almost two quarts of oil which still looks clean. The level is now halfway between the high and low marks. I'm beginning to wish the car were in front of someone else. Wish me luck all, this weekend will be a busy one.
Have a great weekend everyone, enjoy!
Chris80648
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Chris80648 »

Well I'm back. The pre-cat ho2 sensor was coated in black soot. Nothing wet. The rear ho2 sensor was fairly clean. And apparently functional because I measured DC voltage start to rise as I heated it. When I removed the heat the voltage dropped. I also found that from the connection at the exhaust manifold to the trail pipe was all one piece! When I saw that I will admit I lost the desire to pull it out especially in view of the rear ho2 sensor. I did replace the MAF sensor because the codes told me one of the problems was that with the P0102 code and the P0113 code and there was no way to test it especially with no wiring diagram. I cleared the codes by removing the negative terminal overnight. Tried to start the car. It started right up until the idle dropped. Then it sputtered and died. A strong column of white smoke was coming out of the tail pipe. ( keep in mind that I still have a little over a third tank of gas mixed with seafoam in there) I just bought a cen-tech scanner from harbor freight. It shows the only code remaining at this time is the ho2 sensor P0031 (low bank one sensor one) this is the after market sensor I installed following the instructions. I'm wondering if the instructions were correct so I'm looking for a wiring diagram. Does anyone have one or know where I can get a hold of one? The Chilton's manual does not have it.
Also under the "live data" program on my scanner shows "fuelsys1 OL" which might be the cause of the issues. Does anyone know about this. I tired finding it in past posts but could not. Since the P0031 code has cleared I'm going to assume for now that the ECU is working. Thanks all input is appreciated.
Chris80648
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Chris80648 »

One more thing. Can you really hear the fuel pump through the filler pipe. Cause I don't hear anything with the key on. I can hear something in the engine compartment. I also followed the instructions to relieve the fuel pressure at the injectors. (Unplugged the pump at the tank, cranked the engine for a bit.) Pulled the fuel rail and gas went flying everywhere. Does anyone have a different way? Would there still be that much pressure if the pump was not running?
mikevibegt
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by mikevibegt »

Fuel system OL means your fuel system is in open loop, it should go into closed loop when operating temperature reaches certain level, that will be monitored by coolant temperature sensor.If your car never reaches closed loop it could be because your coolant sensor does not read correct temperature.Check through your obd2 live data coolant temperature, see if it starts to rise ( most likely you can't because you can't keep your car running long enough),You know what, I would also check for any vacuum leaks past MAF sensor location leading to the engine, even intake gasket,clamps all the hoses, pcv valve.To relive pressure you can take fuel pump fuse out and try to start the car, it should try to start and stumble. Yes check for proper fuel pressure with the gauge while car running and giving it throttle, then while shut off it should keep pressure.it is hard to hear fuel pump, but you could hear it with back seat lifted up and cover removed
Did the White smoke start after you added sea foam or was it before that?
I hope your car gets fixed and on its way doing what it should, like i said i am almost 100% sure it was nothing to do with your oil change, seems like a bad coincidence.
mikevibegt
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by mikevibegt »

P.S can you start the car and watch live data, let me know what is your LT fuel trim level, and average ST fuel trim, also keep and eye on 02 sensor reading, Does your car die when it reaches closed loop.?
Chris80648
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Chris80648 »

Thank you Mike! Im betting we are almost there. Your assistance is highly valued and most appreciated.
Chris80648
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Chris80648 »

Hello everyone. I hope this adventure is helping more than just myself.
I ran a vacuum test which have me a very steady 14 in hg with the engine at operating temp. Not great but I will be changing intake gasket and clamping all hoses to try to bring this number up. I takes several starts with a short duration idle till the engine dies to bring the engine up to a temp where it will continue to run.
So, I was able to run the car around the block a few times. It still hesitates at start. If you step on the accelerator the engine bogs downa bit the slowly starts to roll out then all of a sudden it seems to just take off. It doesn't like being run under 2k rpm very well.
During this i was able to record what was going on using the scanner. It does register engine temp (199 - 202° F).
My LONGFT1(%) and my SHRTFT1(%) remained at zero no matter what I did to the car.
The MAF readings did not fluctuate as much like I thought it would. But I know it was working because the real time graph movement matched with engine RPM change.
The one thing that puzzles me aside from everything else is that the ho2 sensor b1s1 voltage was at 3.3 volts before I even got the car started. Does that mean it's working? If so, why the DTC?
If I can figure out how to post pics (if possible) using my phone I will send the shots of the scanner info instead of typing everything.
Well anyhow day gone, cold rainy weather moving in. Talk to you folks later.
Chris80648
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Chris80648 »

Hello everyone. I hope this adventure is helping more than just myself.
I ran a vacuum test which gave me a very steady 14 in hg with the engine at operating temp. Not great but I will be changing intake gasket and clamping all hoses to try to bring this number up. It takes several starts with a short duration idle till the engine dies to bring the engine up to a temp where it will continue to run.
So, I was able to run the car around the block a few times. It still hesitates at start. If you step on the accelerator the engine bogs down a bit then slowly starts to roll out then all of a sudden it seems to just take off. It doesn't like being run under 2k rpm very well.
During this i was able to record what was going on using the scanner. It does register engine temp (199 - 202° F).
My LONGFT1(%) and my SHRTFT1(%) remained at zero no matter what I did to the car.
The MAF readings did not fluctuate as much like I thought it would. But I know it was working because the real time graph movement matched with engine RPM change.
The one thing that puzzles me aside from everything else is that the ho2 sensor b1s1 voltage was at 3.3 volts before I even got the car started. Does that mean it's working? If so, why the DTC?
If I can figure out how to post pics (if possible) using my phone I will send the shots of the scanner info instead of typing everything.
Well anyhow day gone, cold rainy weather moving in. Talk to you folks later.
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Rayven01
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Rayven01 »

Vibes use an air/fuel sensor (aka wide-band o2 sensor) for the front (bank 1) instead of a regular o2 sensor. It will always show 3.3v because they measure using tiny current (mA) changes instead of voltage change. You want to look at either o2 wide-range voltage (which fakes a "voltage change" on the scanner) or even better o2 equivalence ratio instead of just o2 volts.

Decent video explaining the difference here (skip ahead to where he starts graphing):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQYDwIWS6Ho
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Chris80648
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Chris80648 »

Well I studied fuel trim last night. It's seems the ho2 sensor for the vibe is much more critical to engine operation than the faulty ho2 sensor on my 2000 f150. I think the plan is now to get a genuine Toyota ho2 sensor, clamp down hoses, and change the intake gasket. Any different ideas and or opinions on my plan? Thanks guys. This is getting to be much more interesting, just wish the education was not so expensive.
Chris80648
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Chris80648 »

Rayvend, thanks for the heads up. It turns out that the sensor I bought is a narrow band. I called O'Reilly's and explained what happened. I gave them the proper part number which they said they did not have, but offered an exact match alternate. I got the part number and looked it up. It turns out to be a narrow band again. I'm getting upset with O'Reilly's. Anyway it was a great lesson that more people should be made aware of, especially the auto parts people.
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Rayven01
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Rayven01 »

Not surprised about O'Reilly, honestly. Vibes are very difficult to shop for. Parts guys will swear up and down that certain things that work with "all GMs of that year" are the right parts, when that's definitely not the case for the Vibe since it's basically a Toyota. You're better off going into the parts store just telling them you have an '06 Matrix base. I went so far as to find a VIN of an '09 Matrix S and keep a record of it for when I need to order parts for mine and they insist on a VIN. Even then you can get the less-than-honest ones that will sell you whatever they have if they don't stock the right things just to make a sale.

I just bought the OEM A/F sensor recently for my sister-in-law's '07 from Amazon. Can't beat the price and it works perfectly. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0018J ... UTF8&psc=1
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Chris80648
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Chris80648 »

So I went to the above site Rayven recommended and found the sensor 234-9052. The Amazon website doesn't say much, but I did find this number online which is described as a narrow band non-heated sensor. Is their description wrong? http://www.autozone.com/1/products/4239 ... -9052.html
This is one of the sites.
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Rayven01
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Rayven01 »

Exactly wrong. It is both wide-band (Air/Fuel) and heated.
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Chris80648
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Chris80648 »

Thank you for the info, like things aren't hard enough without the supplier screwing up too.
mikevibegt
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by mikevibegt »

yea it is wide band and heated, see it had four pin connector. Denso is good brand that is what i have in my car.And with modern cars it is very important to have good o2 sensor, because cars use them to decide air fuel ratio constantly, doing fine adjustments unlike narrow band that tells computer if it is lean, good or rich.
Chris80648
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Chris80648 »

Thanks Mike,
I'm picking up all the parts tomorrow.
Chris80648
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Chris80648 »

Hi guys!
So I installed the 234-9052 a/f sensor. The car ran noticeably better but, still hesitated from a stop and surged through 700-2000 rpm. I figured the computer had to learn and I needed to get it on the freeway to blow the rest of the stuff out. I took it to work, filled it with fresh gas and hit the freeway. As soon as I got to the next city I could tell it ran differently. The hesitation was gone from a stop at a light. During lunch after the engine cooled down, I went and it started up on the first crank. It drove beautifully!
I wish I could thank all those who helped me get through this. I was getting ready to take it to a mechanic. I owe you guys dinner at least. If you're ever in northern Colorado send me a message here and I'll message my number so we can get some chow. A million thanks to you guys.
Oh, I did change oil and filter before bringing it to work with the right amount of oil this time...
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vibrologist
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by vibrologist »

Congrats, Chris!
Rayven01 hit it spot on. I learned a lot right here!
Vibrologist
'05 Vibe

"It is important to know the difference between 'accurate' and 'precise' even if you are neither!"

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=43476
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Rayven01
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Rayven01 »

Awesome! Glad it was that simple. So many people still think o2 sensors are just for emissions and the check engine light is just an "idiot light", but these days, especially with A/F sensors, they really are critical to the proper functioning of the engine.
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Chris80648
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Chris80648 »

You can say that again Rayven! Like I said, my truck has the light on and it codes for ho2 sensor, but it runs fine. It really took you guys to convince me that the sensor was the problem on the vibe.
Thanks again fellows,
Deep gratitude and best wishes to you all.
Chris
lannvouivre
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by lannvouivre »

Chris80648 wrote:Well I studied fuel trim last night. It's seems the ho2 sensor for the vibe is much more critical to engine operation than the faulty ho2 sensor on my 2000 f150. I think the plan is now to get a genuine Toyota ho2 sensor, clamp down hoses, and change the intake gasket. Any different ideas and or opinions on my plan? Thanks guys. This is getting to be much more interesting, just wish the education was not so expensive.
When you first start the car, it runs in "open loop" and uses the MAF sensor to decide how much fuel to use. When the car is warmed up, it enters "closed loop" and uses readings from the front O2 sensor to determine fuel management.
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Mark
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Re: Hello new member in need of help

Post by Mark »

Rayven01 wrote:Not surprised about O'Reilly, honestly. Vibes are very difficult to shop for. Parts guys will swear up and down that certain things that work with "all GMs of that year" are the right parts, when that's definitely not the case for the Vibe since it's basically a Toyota. You're better off going into the parts store just telling them you have an '06 Matrix base.
I had a guy at Auto Zone refuse to sell me NGK plugs for my "GM" car. And I only went there because Advanced doesn't carry the right PCV valve, so I thought I'd try to get both in one stop.
Rayven01 wrote:I went so far as to find a VIN of an '09 Matrix S and keep a record of it for when I need to order parts for mine and they insist on a VIN. Even then you can get the less-than-honest ones that will sell you whatever they have if they don't stock the right things just to make a sale.
I had to use an 08 Matrix VIN from Autotrader to get the right center console for my 08 Vibe.
'08 Base Stealth, '05 Base Satellite
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