I started the installation of a Hydrgoen generator HHO system yesterday!

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Rodlucci
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I started the installation of a Hydrgoen generator HHO system yesterday!

Post by Rodlucci » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:54 am

Will update on the progress and results. I drive my Vibe 700 miles a week, mostly on the interstate and I am researching this hydrogen option. I have put 15,000 miles on my Vibe since October of 11 and have documented every mile and fill up. It will be interesting!

danimal86
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Post by danimal86 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:47 am

I've done this on an Explorer before. Are you going to make it yourself or buy a kit?

Rodlucci
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Re: (danimal86)

Post by Rodlucci » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:37 am

I bought a kit, but with any kit there is some making involved. The generator is complete and a sealed unit. Got the system installed today and will mix the chemicals and start the process tomorrow. How were your results on your Explorer?

10vibe
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Post by 10vibe » Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:03 pm

If you can return the kit and get your money back, do it immediately! That is doubtful though. EDIT:If you have the time and disposable income, it might be a fun experiment, and I could be completely wrong about its efficacy. I just have a lot of doubts. For further reading I posted a few links. If you bing or startpage or ixquick HHO scams (search engines I now prefer over others, and startpage, which is owned by ixquick, is enhanced by google in a more private way), there are forums that discuss this stuff. Real, independent testing using controlled and scientific methods have not found these things to work.http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=43884, My thoughts on another post.https://secure.wikimedia.org/w...d_carh ... ometricMaf and Map sensors are not detecting the hydrogen levels, so they are not adjusting the algorithmic programs, richness or leanness. The oxygen sensors have a too limited range of adjustment for the claimed mpg increases. If claims are that there is more complete burn and less emissions, then the o2 sensor would probably adjust to go rich, thus burning more fuel. Pre-detonation or knock sensors do not have the range to adjust timing advance either way for the large claim of mpg increase. There is nothing that is going to decrease the amount of fuel "stoichiometrically" that is being injected on every compression stroke with the addition of an HHO system. Within a static and dynamic compression range, compression/timing and fuel/air ratio is set at a level not engineered for any big changes, such as with forced induction for example, especially without a different, tricked, or reprogrammed ECU/ECM.The engines are not designed for this kind of thing. The head, valves, pistons, rings, fuel injection (not being direct injected), oil levels, coolant system efficiencies, etc. are not designed for lean burn operation. The hotter running engine and heat soak is not engineered for lean burn operation.Compressed fuel and hydrogen like gases have different values, properties, flash point, etc. and do not mix or change states, bonding together, and then combusting at some miraculous same rate. Combustion chambers get pretty hot, even before spark plugs fire. Spark plug heat ranges and gaps are set for specific operational levels. These things are supposed to be for mpg, not some performance enhancer such as NOX, and most people that are trying to get better fuel economy value longevity and reliability too.Best and worse mpg guess, + or - 2 mpg, averaging no gain. Best case scenario, a little more power at full timing/compression with this so-called complete burn (acting hopefully like higher octane without ethanol's energy loss and no pre-detonation or retarded timing), so ya become a little easier on the throttle. Perceived benefits, real or imagined, might cause most, if any mpg gains. I had to put on rose colored aviator goggles to get there though.Personally, I think you will lose mpg when considering the extra drain on the alternator, and the requisite increase in rpm's, especially at idle to keep up. Kind of like having the compressor on, especially the defrost in winter with fan on high and the auxiliary electric heater running also, if you have one of those model Vibes.Worst case scenario: Major pre-detonation and low performance, and that is if you are lucky. Hopefully pistons, valves, and other parts hold up, while possibly running lean, too hot, and overheating. Warped heads and gasket leaks are a possibility. Hopefully there are no leaks and fires. I always like to put a potential Hindenberg under my hood where it is safe. I hope it is not a glass mason jar Hindenberg. I jest a little, but seriously, be careful.Edit:The relatively low volume of hydrogen that can be produced in ratio to the air volume of the cylinders at rpm's might be the only saving grace for the engine. Tricking the engine into a run lean state, though, is highly unwise, and also is probably the only way you will ever possibly see any mpg gains.Raw material costs and replacement/replenishment probably will make it cost prohibitive anyway. then there is any added weight.If this HHO thing is so easy, legitimate, and cost effective, all car companies would be at least offering it as an option. Power generators would have em. lawn mowers would have em, etc. These are just some of my rambling thoughts on the matter and I might be completely wrong.I am not a certified mechanic, physicist, or chemist, I just play one on forums.Good luck, I hope you are successful or get your money back.
2010 Vibe 1.8 auto, fwd, base, air, preferred package, cargo mgt, cargo cover, ultra white.

Rodlucci
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Re: (10vibe1.8auto)

Post by Rodlucci » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:31 pm

10vibe, I will keep you posted!I know they are not easy and require a great deal fo effort, but I am ok with that!I have owned an RX8 for 7 years and they are not easy and require a great deal of effort as well. I am ok with that too!

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joatmon
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Post by joatmon » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:59 pm

be careful with that dihydrogen monoxide, I've heard that inhaling too much can be fatal

10vibe
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Re: (joatmon)

Post by 10vibe » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:30 am

Joatmon, (removed)!Don't want any hydrolocked lungs,...or engines!
2010 Vibe 1.8 auto, fwd, base, air, preferred package, cargo mgt, cargo cover, ultra white.

10vibe
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Re: (Rodlucci)

Post by 10vibe » Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:00 am

Rodlucci, yes please keep us posted.Those Wankel engines sure can be fun!Here are two other articles on HHO that is more eloquent than I:http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_...iclesh ... ...PwRKfIt takes too much energy to make hydrogen at any significant level compared to the volume of air an engine goes through. The dilution of hydrogen with air is significant. the laws of thermodynamics and the conservation of energy strangely keeps popping up.Tricking the MAP or MAF to a "run lean" situation is bad news
2010 Vibe 1.8 auto, fwd, base, air, preferred package, cargo mgt, cargo cover, ultra white.

5speednightstand
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Post by 5speednightstand » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:34 am

Sorry you bought into this. You have to think of hydrogen as a state of energy, not a fuel.Lets face it, this has been around a while. If it worked even with a minutia of gain, you would see places to put water in cars. The web sites posted state it well enough, I won't go into it, but as they say, "Good luck with that."

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Re: (5speednightstand)

Post by Rodlucci » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:58 am

Trust me, I am not posting this to make a believer out of anyone. This is not for the mechanically faint of heart or for soccer moms. It takes a great deal of effort to build and set up. You will never see this type of set up on a factory vehicle for the same reason we will not see a Mazda RX8 this year, it takes more effort than most are willing to put forth. After hours of installing, fabing and hours of tweaking, I have finally been able to drive. Logged 318 miles today, same 318 miles with similar weather and wind that gave me 31.5 mpg before the HHO. The Vibe consumed 8.404 gallons of 87 octane and 7 oz of distilled water with a tablespoon of potassium hydroxide for the 318 miles today with the HHO installed...........37.84 mpg, which equals a 20% increase, I am ok with that! No CEL, No MAF or O2 tricks

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KITT222
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Re: (Rodlucci)

Post by KITT222 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:46 am

Could you try some A-B-A testing, a-la Ecomodder?http://ecomodder.com/forum/sho....html

10vibe
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Re: (Rodlucci)

Post by 10vibe » Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:33 pm

I do not know specifically the range of adjustment for the Vibe concerning maf, map, and 02 sensors, but generally there is about a 20% fuel/ air ratio adjustment range when modern fuel injection first came upon the scene.These numbers are impressive, though. Safe? Not so sure about that. Generally, the computer does adjust and start to favor the o2 readings over maf/map reading on many cars over a certain time, then mileage starts to decrease again. Trouble codes might start popping up too. Many questions and ponderings to come. Hope you do not mind. It is a fun topic.Will be very interested on updates. Did you also change the thermostat to a lower temperature? The whole metering rates/ratios at changing rpms's, and air velocities, from stopped and idle to at speed has me concerned. The nature of hydrogen separating and rising, pocket accumulation, excess venting, changing flow rates, etc., ....many etc.'s have me flummoxed. Cylinder temps worry me too. Good luck.EDIT:Curious how your idle is? Did you do anything to the IAC circuit?
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Rodlucci
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Re: (10vibe1.8auto)

Post by Rodlucci » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:38 pm

10vibe,Actually, I don't mind at all! I encourage this type of discussion. How else does one learn without doing, at least that is the way I have always been. I disconnect the battery over night, the memory disappears and then it relearns the next day based on the newly induced O2. The funny thing is on the 6 disc radio you don't loose the preset stations even by disconnecting the positive and the negative on the battery. I had them disconnected for 48 hours over the weekend and the presets are still there. I had to reset the clock, but that is it. As far as safety, as long as I am operating within the plus minus of the O2 it is completely normal! I have not minipulated any electronics other than disconnecting the battery over night. I have done no mechanical changes other than the addition of the HHO. I will continue to update for anyone to read and I will not get my feelings hurt with any of it!Thanks!

Rodlucci
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Re: (10vibe1.8auto)

Post by Rodlucci » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:01 pm

Kitt222,A-B-A testing is good and a possibility. However, I have logged every mile, gallon, location and date for the last 15,000 miles I have put on this Vibe since October 2011. I am using my data as the comparison as they are the real world conditions that I am faced with for my tests. Once I get my arms wrapped around this it may become important for me to prove this, but it is not for now. Thanks for your interest!

10vibe
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Re: (Rodlucci)

Post by 10vibe » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:03 pm

Curious to know what materials and construction you are using? What are the cathode and anode material? What temps does the exothermic reaction get to? How much volts and amps? Where are you actually piping in the HHO? Mostly water vapor? How much HHO is produced per minute? How much actual hydrogen(not water vapor or steam) is being produced (gaseous state)? Are we talking parts per million? Is it flammable at all? At only using 7 ounces of distilled water in 318 miles and at least 6 hours of driving, calling it even water (vapor) injection would be stretching it. More like a humidifier. Might as well hook up a CPAP machine to the intake .Seems to me, any real electrolysis that actually separated hydrogen and oxygen from water at any meaningful level would be going through a lot of water very quickly. We cannot change the mass or we are getting more than put in.You got me really curious. For clarification, are you tricking the MAF?I kind of wish I had an old spare car just to mess around with these experiments.Thanks for putting up with the questions.EDIT:What kind of other gases or vapor might be produced through water electrolysis with potassium hydroxide besides oxygen and hydrogen? Remember Oxygen at the right concentration is flammable too, and double the fun if successfully separating em from water. Combustion would not be the same without em. Extra oxygen in the combustion process would make the car run leaner and hotter, unless a sensor picked up the state and adjusted to run richer. I do not think there is enough vapor or humidity to cool the cylinder down.EDIT:Is there any exothermic reaction or "out-gassing" going on just between the Potassium hydroxide, distilled water, and dissimilar metals without the addition of voltage? If so, how is this controlled? What is the ratio of potassium hydroxide and distilled water and what is the capacity of the tank (bubbler?) and the other one above it? Thanks for your patience
2010 Vibe 1.8 auto, fwd, base, air, preferred package, cargo mgt, cargo cover, ultra white.

danimal86
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Re: (Rodlucci)

Post by danimal86 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:51 pm

Quote, originally posted by Rodlucci »I bought a kit, but with any kit there is some making involved. The generator is complete and a sealed unit. Got the system installed today and will mix the chemicals and start the process tomorrow. How were your results on your Explorer?Sorry, i haven't checked back in a bit. there were some gains in my explorer with my homemade one. Some of the kits i've seen look nice and well made (with the exception of one that was a mason jar with a wire coil in it). I only used the hho when i was going on a 20+ mile drive, because it takes a bit to purge out the air in the feed lines and through the bubbler (good idea to have one). I'd suggest getting a ScanGauge and watching the engine temp, i did notice that the engine temp was climb a bit faster If you ever get far enough into it to try some more risky stuff, you could lean out your afr, (i do not recommend this) and get more gainshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44zi7GeP0UYDont get deterred by other peoples ideas/opinions. Give it a try and report back!Edit: Sorry if that reply is redundant with some other info/results....i just quickly scanned through the thread....and by scanned, i meant skipped to the bottom.

Rodlucci
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Re: (10vibe1.8auto)

Post by Rodlucci » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:54 am

10vibe, these are not in the order you asked and are not all that you asked, but what I know. Using a Mileage Shop single cell, plumbed the HHO into the throttle body off the PCV as it is a one way valve and i did not need to cut the intake hose, 13.4 volts, 10 amps, have not measure the amount produced in a minute, but the cell is capable of 3 liters per minute, it is cumbustible, again I am not altering the MAF or the O2 other than the disconnect of the battery.Just finished the 660 mile trip and averaged 37.07 mpg. This included a 47 minute construction delay to cover 5 miles on I95, not the best for my test!

10vibe
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Re: (Rodlucci)

Post by 10vibe » Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:22 pm

Thanks for the info. I should of just asked what generator you got from the start. Would of answered some of my questions. With so many different systems on the market, doing things differently, it can get confusing trying to figure out what someone is dealing with.If you ever get the time, snap some pics of the installation, and maybe add any "Vibe-centric" info that might come in handy, especially things you had to fabricate yourself, like mounting brackets and such. What made you decide on the Mileage Shop kit? Was the kit pretty complete for the installation? Would you buy that particular one again?With all the miles you drive, getting a baseline on performance comes quick!Thanks again for your patience with my questions. Please keep us posted!
2010 Vibe 1.8 auto, fwd, base, air, preferred package, cargo mgt, cargo cover, ultra white.

mr.clutch
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Post by mr.clutch » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:11 pm

37 mpgs on this trip. What is your regular mpgs? What is your average driving speed?

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AKLGT
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Post by AKLGT » Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:46 pm

I installed a kit on my LGT. saw gains of approx 5-10 mpg. Worth it? maybe. The maintenance was a pain, but definitely worked to increase fuel economy. For those who are easy to knock it before you actually try it, don't. It does work, people have been using these systems for a very long time, however it's been marketing that makes people spend insane amounts of money on a pre-manufactured kit.
AKLGT1998 Subaru 2.5RS

Rodlucci
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Re: (AKLGT)

Post by Rodlucci » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:28 pm

danimal86, I did review that matrix video before I purchased my kit, I am not interested in "tricking"the electronics. Too lean burns valves and is risky! I agree about the purging of air. I had to adjust and tweak the length of my hoses to get a consistant flow. I may do the scan gauge in the future.10vibe, I would buy this kit again. It is the most professional device I was able to locate and the kit is complete minus the mounting hardware. Mounting it is the most difficult part of the installation. Putting the components in the correct position is a challenge. Once I am satisfied with my installation I will post pictures. I had to use a 10" piece of a 2x4 to mount the water tank and I can only imagine the naysayers comments if I posted a picture of it now.mrclutch, this trip had a 47 minute construction delay that covered 5 miles of stall and crawl on the interstate, I believe I would have been hard pressed to exceed 31 mpg with the in town cycle and this delay on this trip.AKLGT, thanks for believing! My Grand Father was doing this on an RV back in the 70's and that is were I learned about it. I spent more money than it would have cost to build one, but were I live it would have cost me $200 in fuel driving all over to get the pieces and components, so I bought one.

Rodlucci
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Re: (Rodlucci)

Post by Rodlucci » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:09 pm

I cropped my pictures, so here is the basic install of the Hydrogen cell.

Attached files

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Re: (Rodlucci)

Post by Rodlucci » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:12 pm

Here is a photo of the water bubbler container and the HHO Scrubber container with the plumbing.

Attached files

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Re: (Rodlucci)

Post by Rodlucci » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:14 pm

Here is the before install photo.

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joatmon
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Post by joatmon » Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:25 am

I hope it works to worthwhile. I recommend scientic benefit analysis. A single tank, or even several tanks worth of MPGs contain enough variables to not be all that valuable data. There are a lot of variables. How full you fill up, when the pump shuts off. It's a change of seasons and that will have an effect, you should see a slight improvement in MPGs this time of year anyway. Unconsciously, doing a mod to potentially improve MPGs will affect your driving, unless you are already the most fervent hypermiler. Still, even if the project has no physical effect, but the act of doing the project improves your MPGs, then it can be worth it.For me, i try to drive gently, often fail to do so. I bought the 5 speed Vibe because it was rated a few mpgs more than the auto, and the tranny replacement costs have far surpassed any fuel savings. SO, be sure that the pennies you save are done in a way that won't cost you a major repair later.

pushead
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Post by pushead » Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:02 am

Roducci, is that a pusher fan I see on the condensor or is that the horn? How has the air flow blockage affected your A/C temps and engine temps?

10vibe
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Re: (Rodlucci)

Post by 10vibe » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:55 pm

Rodlucci,Good job! thanks for posting. Whenever you get everything the way you want and are taking more pics, snap one of the pcv/intake plumb.Is the reprogramming/relearning procedure that the site talks about, just disconnecting the battery every night when concerning the Vibe?Curious about purging of air procedures too.Will enjoy further updates and thoughts on the system.
2010 Vibe 1.8 auto, fwd, base, air, preferred package, cargo mgt, cargo cover, ultra white.

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KITT222
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Post by KITT222 » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:20 pm

Wow. How much might a kit or the parts cost? 5+ mpg might be worth it to me. What about maintenance, or any changes to how I drive or park my car?

Rodlucci
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Re: (KITT222)

Post by Rodlucci » Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:13 pm

Pushead, that is the horn. I grounded the HHO cell to the bolt that mounts the horn. There is nothing blocking air flow through the radiator. I mounted the HHO cell off to the side. The edge of the cell can be seen through the grill, but it is not blocking air flow. The engine temps seem normal based on the gauge in the car. The AC seems normal as the outside air temp got up to 88 degrees while I was driving. 10vibe, the only requirement is to disconnent the battery once. I have disconnected it over night, but have stopped. The manual that comes with the kit suggests that everytime you make a potassium hydroxide adjustment you need to disconnect the battery to allow the system to adjust to the new HHO levels. Purging the air requires shortening the hoses and positioning the devices so flow is consistant. I had to shorten my lines about 6" each to get my flow consistant. The Mileage shop Tech support helped me through that process. The air purges out of the system automatically when you start the engine. It takes about 10 seconds for the flow to bubble consistantly.KITT222, the kit is $299 plus the cost of an AMP gauge. They stopped including the amp gauge in the kit because some people want specific gauges, like digital or brand specific inside there car. I purchased my gauge from mileage shop and the gauge and mounting were $35. Shipping and all brought the total to about $358. There are cheaper kits, but I chose this one and the quality is good. A question about my speed was asked earlier and I missed it. I set my crusie at 72 on the interstate and usually stay under 5 over in other speed zones. I have checked my speed accuracy with gps. I have not changed my driving habits since installing the kit. I have experimented with speed before I installed the kit and understand the effect it has on mileage already. I carry about 350 pounds of tools and equipment with me in my vibe when I travel.

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Re: (Rodlucci)

Post by Rodlucci » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:07 am

Two fill ups this week, not much driving a total of 441 miles. Drove more through towns and stop and go this week. First fill was 304 miles with a total of 46 miles on the interstate, mostly secondary and stop and go. Used 9.144 gallons for 33.245 mpg.Second fill up was on the insterstate and off for a total of 137 miles. Cruise was set at 73 and AC was on with 82 degree outside temps and windy from incoming storms. Used 3.494 gallons for 39.210 mpg.Here is my control on the fill ups. I set the pump on the first click setting and let it click off. I then pull the handle to half until it clicks off. I do this a total of three times to make sure the tank is full. I do this on every tank fill up to make sure the tank is full. So far my results are 13% to 20% better mpg with the HHO. I will continue to tweak to get to 40 mpg on the interstate, that is my goal!

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Post by Salsa Guy » Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:14 pm

My buddy has a HHO setup on his Suburban and sees about a 20% MPG improvement. Now he's had to adjust the current through the unit during hotter weather. In my mind the jury is still out over cost vs savings vs possible risks. Best of luck to your project!
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Re: (Salsa Guy)

Post by hotbug1776 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:34 pm

They sell hydrogen in tanks, I don't know in what sizes, but, to test the HHO theory before committing to a generator, a tank system feeding through a bubbler into the motor as a generator would may help in determining if the hydrogen is giving you good results. You would also, with enough supply, be able to determine the optimum hydrogen needed for best mpg results. My buddy has a browns gas generator on his IH truck. He has seen a 5-15 mpg increase thus far in a 1970's carbureted V8.
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Re: (hotbug1776)

Post by Rodlucci » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:09 am

As I understand it, stored Hydrogen is dangerous. Creating hydrogen as you burn it is not. Driving around with a tank of Hydrogen is not recommended, it will go boom if ignited in an accident.

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Re: (Rodlucci)

Post by hotbug1776 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:56 am

So is riding around on a partially emptied gasoline tank, but, it's common practice. LolI wouldn't begin to suggest using a large tank, that could be bad. Just enough for testing purposes. In fact, not even on the road. A side by side test of fuel consumption at off idle or idle conditions. Just to get some base numbers. I've seen browns gas generators work. With measurable results, through a set of plates and several "tuning" adjustments of the generator and the motor. Just to get the "perfect" ratios.
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Re: (hotbug1776)

Post by Rodlucci » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:25 pm

hotbug1776, Got it, good idea!

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Re: (Rodlucci)

Post by Rodlucci » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:01 am

Drove 514 miles this week from Florence, SC to Asheville, NC into the mountains. Drove some city miles in Canton, NC and returned to Florence, SC. I averaged 35.13 mpg over the 514 miles with the elevation changes. I stopped over a 137 mile interstate dirve going up there before I hit the elavation/mountain changes and I hit 39.9 mpg.

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Re: I started the installation of a Hydrgoen generator HHO s

Post by Rodlucci » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:37 am

Still running the HHO with good success. Just completed a 2093 mile run through the south east using 58.032 gallons of 87 octane fuel for an average of 36.066 mpg. Mostly highway driving with cruise set at 75 mph for a 90% highway and 10% city stop and go cycle. Had 3 people and 2 weeks worth of cargo with the rear window almost completely blocked with stuff and the rear cambered out. The best tank has been 41.44 mpg at 95% highway and cruise set at 72 mph with only 1 person (driver) and empty car.

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